Wickersham book discussion

[RobertWeathers]

Bill not being a personal or friendly guy and not knowing how to play the political game did him in. The fans resented Bill for the Kosar decision from the beginning and Bill basically didn't give a crap. Back then of course Bill didn't have the credibility he does today.

Modell was very aware of that perception. I believe that's what led to all of that.

We interpret what led to the firing differently.

Modell wanted to keep him but the other owners and parties convinced him to move on. That's his prerogative.

 

[Ring 6]

Not when Bademosi and Richards were puking all over the field. There is no way, none, I don't care how poorly Butler looked in practice, that he would not made a difference. He won us the freaking SB in 2014 as a rookie for cripes sakes.

So on your team there is no such thing as discipline? A player who admits he was terrible at practice and had his effort questioned is fine because he made a play once? Anarchy rules?

 

[StockingAnarchyNumber12]

I mean.. football reference Cleveland ? That is a nose dive... is NE in the middle of two decades of failure ?

Yeah, I think we're in trouble. In 2019 you could already see the clear regression for the team. We made the WC, but we were pretty bad. In 2020 we slipped more. This season "could" be even worse. As successful as Belichick has been, there comes a time where a culture dies and you can no longer make it work. I don't know if its dead yet, but another losing season? The data won't be on Belichick's side.

I hope this ship turns around soon because it seems like the entire ship is falling apart at the seams.

 

[amfootball]

So on your team there is no such thing as discipline? A player who admits he was terrible at practice and had his effort questioned is fine because he made a play once? Anarchy rules?

Are you kidding me with this non-sense!? It was the Super Bowl. Butler had played over 95% of the defensive snaps all season. The guys we had out there were atrocious. The Eagles never punted. And you want to talk about discipline for a player who was sick and performing poorly in practice? Patricia is a complete moron. We all know that. But the fact that Bill sided with him and torpedoed our SB is unforgivable. No wonder Brady said he was done after that game.

 

[RobertWeathers]

Please give it up already. Butler was SPECULATING out loud when he said that. It was not an admission. That’s even clearer with the revelation of the argument with Big Head Matt.

“I wasn’t feeling too well," he said. "I felt like that was kind of part of it. Not to blame anybody. I accept full responsibly for myself. I am not blaming the New England Patriots or no one. It could have been just me, you know. It could have been anything, but I was not feeling too well and the New England Patriots are all about doing their job and they want everybody locked in and focused 100 percent and that probably was not the case.

You view it as speculation, fine.

I read it as a passive admission to his state at the time.

 

[NFL Mystique]

The game was winnable without him, but it wouldn't have hurt to put him in for a series or two...

Series or two?

His behind should've been in there to start the 3rd. And stayed in the game.

Yeah, I think we're in trouble. In 2019 you could already see the clear regression for the team. We made the WC, but we were pretty bad. In 2020 we slipped more. This season "could" be even worse. As successful as Belichick has been, there comes a time where a culture dies and you can no longer make it work. I don't know if its dead yet, but another losing season? The data won't be on Belichick's side.

I hope this ship turns around soon because it seems like the entire ship is falling apart at the seams.

Look at the Jets or Giants if you wanna see "Pretty bad".

12-4 with a home playoff game isn't bad by any stretch of the imagination.

 

[Froob]

Is that a surprise? This is coming from the guy that hired lip readers to sit in the stands and read the play callers lips and signal in the upcoming plays. Shanahan is the reason coaches cover their lips with their play sheet when calling in plays. He also cheated the salary cap...twice!

Lmao gotta love how real Shannahan was here.

 

[StockingAnarchyNumber12]

Are you kidding me with this non-sense!? It was the Super Bowl. Butler had played over 95% of the defensive snaps all season. The guys we had out there were atrocious. The Eagles never punted. And you want to talk about discipline for a player who was sick and performing poorly in practice? Patricia is a complete moron. We all know that. But the fact that Bill sided with him and torpedoed our SB is unforgivable. No wonder Brady said he was done after that game.

I will say this. I have always believed Belichick miscalculated the Brady departure situation. I think he believed he could win without him. Maybe it wasn't even arrogance, but confidence in himself.

Depending on how this season goes, its clear he miscalculated somewhere.

 

[StockingAnarchyNumber12]

Series or two?

His behind should've been in there to start the 3rd. And stayed in the game.

Look at the Jets or Giants if you wanna see "Pretty bad".

12-4 with a home playoff game isn't bad by any stretch of the imagination.

We were bad. We had a very easy first half of a schedule. The second half of the season showed how overrated that unit was.

 

[Ice_Ice_Brady]

Actually the Browns were about average for most of Bills tenure there, after taking over a team that was 3-13. They improved every season and went 11-5 in '94. They were considered a Superbowl favorite ahead of the '95 season, but that season was doomed from the beginning because Art Modell announced he was moving the team to Baltimore in the middle of it. There was a great episode of "A Football Life" that explains everything that went on that season and how it was set up to fail.

Not true. People can make hindsight excuses all they want. The facts are quite different.

You’ve already alluded to the logical problem right here: but that season was doomed from the beginning because Art Modell announced he was moving the team to Baltimore in the middle of it.

They still had a horrible quarterback with Testaverde, who was also horrible in 1994 despite being carried by a great defense.

In 1995, they were 4-5 before any announcement came out about relocating the franchise. They don’t get credit for being a ”Super Bowl favorite” when they clearly were not going anywhere.

The announcement came after their loss to Houston. The team collapse also had to do with their schedule. They played 11-5 (eventual AFC Champ) Pittsburgh twice, defending AFC champ San Diego, and Favre’s Packers in the second half of the season. I’ve never heard of the excuse used for any other team in pro sports that their players suddenly stopped performing (which would put their personal careers at risk) because a team is moving. Many other sports teams teams have left a city.

 

[RobertWeathers]

You’re not calculating in the increase of value brought by the opening of Gillette Stadium.

OK what is that value?

Look at the teams that win & in big markets and the ones that don't/aren't.

 

[BadMoFo]

The book seems to be doing a pretty good job of painting Brady in a negative light too, FWIW.

So far, from these leaked portions of the book, Kraft seems like the only one looking somewhat decent.

 

[Patsfan1958]

 

[The Brandon Five]

The game was winnable without him, but it wouldn't have hurt to put him in for a series or two...

The just needed one stop. The Eagles only punted once.

 

[XLIX]

I am undecided on buying this book. While it would be insightful if accurate, I just don't trust Wickersham's accuracy.

 

[FCB02062]

Series or two?

His behind should've been in there to start the 3rd. And stayed in the game.

Look at the Jets or Giants if you wanna see "Pretty bad".

12-4 with a home playoff game isn't bad by any stretch of the imagination.

When you start a season 8-0 and have the self-proclaimed defense in the league, then proceed to finish the season 4-5 with a home loss to Ryan Teannehill in the playoffs with said self-proclaimed best defense in the league not being able to cover a 3rd tight end on 3d and 8 from the Tennessee 8 yard line with the game on the line, YES it was PRETTY BAD. Also, during said 4-5 finish you have the best qb in history and your offense manages more than 2 touchdowns in a game FOUR times in NINE games....

 

[RobertWeathers]

Not true. People can make hindsight excuses all they want. The facts are quite different.

You’ve already alluded to the logical problem right here: but that season was doomed from the beginning because Art Modell announced he was moving the team to Baltimore in the middle of it.

They still had a horrible quarterback with Testaverde, who was also horrible in 1994 despite being carried by a great defense.

In 1995, they were 4-5 before any announcement came out about relocating the franchise. They don’t get credit for being a ”Super Bowl favorite” when they clearly were not going anywhere.

The announcement came after their loss to Houston. The team collapse also had to do with their schedule. They played 11-5 (eventual AFC Champ) Pittsburgh twice, defending AFC champ San Diego, and Favre’s Packers in the second half of the season. I’ve never heard of the excuse used for any other team in pro sports that their players suddenly stopped performing (which would put their personal careers at risk) because a team is moving. Many other sports teams teams have left a city.

Browns were in 1st place when Modell told the team he was moving them.

Go to the ~20min mark in the video.

It was formally announced later in Nov.

 

[venecol]

“I wasn’t feeling too well," he said. "I felt like that was kind of part of it. Not to blame anybody. I accept full responsibly for myself. I am not blaming the New England Patriots or no one. It could have been just me, you know. It could have been anything, but I was not feeling too well and the New England Patriots are all about doing their job and they want everybody locked in and focused 100 percent and that probably was not the case.

Yea this sounds like a really, really strong statement by Malcolm agreeing with Bill's BS excuse. Lmao

Come on @RobertWeathers that's weak sauce. He was told to say this.

 

[NashuaPats]

I hate these stories and books that are hit pieces which rely entirely on anonymous sources. The Patriots dominated for an unprecedented length of time. There are plenty of people around the league with grudges willing to tell 2nd and 3rd hand rumors while not willing to put their name on them.

We are to believe Belichick runs a toxic environment while the strength of their clubhouse has always been attributed to being a major part of their success. Meanwhile, there are always plenty of teams around the league with infighting as their teams fall apart.

We are to believe that the Patriots are an awful organization to play and work for. Meanwhile, former players and coaches are constantly happy to return. Just this season, Trent Brown, Kyle Van Noy, and Patricia were quick to come back. There have been many players over the years who have returned and have been quoted that they appreciate the team’s professionalism in comparison to others.

I’m sure there’s some truth in this book as it’s natural for there to be arguments, frustration, and hurt feelings, but this sounds mostly like gossip and tabloid material which appears to be Wikersham’s specialty.

 

[StockingAnarchyNumber12]

Not to turn this into a Brady/Belichick debate, but lets say we go "6-11" this season. What then?

As successful as Belichick has been, would this mean his culture is dead and maybe he can no longer make it work? This team has a lot of holes and depending on how this season ends, it could get worse before it gets better. I remember Ring 6 mentioned something along the lines of "Belichick is filling the holes with the offseason splurge".

And then what? What if all the cap he spent in the offseason doesn't make us look more competitive than last season?