Belichick still greatest of all time coach?

[NFL Mystique]

Well - Bill himself admitted he made a mistake and he'll never do something like that again. That's not really something manufactured. Bill is not a cheater but he still tried to outsmart his peers by playing lawyer with the wording of the rule and the memo that went with it- and it backfired not just on him but on us fans who had to defend it and still do.

We know he is not getting selected unanimously on the first ballot into the HOF. One voter has already said he won't vote for Bill for that reason and I'm sure he's not the only one. It sucks and a lot of that perception is Goodell's fault too - but it's also Bill's fault by his own admission.

So yeah that damaged his legacy by quite a bit imo.

Unlike MLB, NFL HOF votes aren't publicized. We would never know if he was selected unanimously on the first ballot or not. Unless of course he doesn't get in on his first try.

 

[StrawHatPatriot]

Punting on Belichick's legacy after a 1-2 start is dumb.

What's happening that DOES make sense is that the Cult of Personality level of worship around Belichick is eroding because reality keeps kicking it in the teeth. No, Belichick can't win with "Johnny Foxboro" at QB, he can't make any collection of scrubs into champions, he can't just get away with mistakes he makes at GM indefinitely because he's an A+ coach. Wins don't "just happen" because Belichick is standing on the sidelines.

None of that was true of any of the other historically great coaches, either. It's a product of homer nonsense run wild.

Taking it further, it's LIKELY that the stuff like penalties and dumb play calling and special teams blunders are toned down or go away. Jones probably improves over time because that's what rookies who are good prospects do. What's less clear is how they get good enough OL play out of this collection of players to keep Jones alive and productive for a 17 game season, because what I'm seeing so far is less scheme issues and more just getting their asses beat.

Exactly.

If anything, Belichick's fatal flaw as a coach is that his schemes/systems are actually too reliant on having a great QB of Brady's caliber. When he's there, everything fell into place, which is why they were able to make 9 f'n super bowls. But the issue is that Brady specifically had to be there.

Mahomes, Favre, Wilson, Elway, and Rodgers are too "unscripted" to succeed in a Belichick team. They won't have the twitch or patience to run the offense. They have a tendency to extend plays when they don't have too or wait for a better play to develop.

And Peyton wouldn't be clutch enough either.

Belichick is obviously still a great coach, but I think it's gotten to a point where you can argue other coaches over him without it being a hot take. Because they aren't as reliant on having their QBs be perfect.

 

[Rob0729]

It absolutely matters when looking at coaches like Gibbs and Parcells who won multiple SBs with different QBs all of whom were not HoF worthy. I also think coaches like Reid who had a lot of success with McNabb and Smith prior to Mahomes starts to creep in as well as Payton who is now 11-2 with QBs who are JAGs for the last 2+ seasons without Brees. Having the GOAT and winning and being a losing coach without him changes the overall perceptions specifically in comparison to other great coaches.

Gibbs and Parcells were in a different time and era where you could win a Super Bowl with a dominant defense and a game managing QB. You can't do that today. You couldn't win a Super Bowl today with a Doug Williams or Jeff Hostetler. Hell, I don't know if you could win with a Phil Simms quality QB anymore.

If Belichick was a head coach in the 80s and early 90s, I could see him win multiple Super Bowls with multiple QBs. Hell, it was his defense that was the key to Parcells' wins.

 

[Ice_Ice_Brady]

A lot of people are really opinionated about the Greatest Coach of All Time despite being 1000X more familiar with Bill Belichick than:

• George Halas
• Paul Brown
• Vince Lombardi
• Tom Landry
• Chuck Noll
• Joe Gibbs
• Don Shula
• Bill Walsh

I’m just curious how one can have a reasonable discussion without any knowledge of other potential GOAT candidates.

 

[Rob0729]

Belichick is overrated. He inherited a Parcells defense for the 1st dynasty and Brady carried his water and made up for various deficiencies for the 2nd. Is he an all time great coach, yes. The best ever? Hell no! I'd take Knoll, Walsh, Parcells, Lombardi, Gibbs, Landry, Madden over him any day of the week. He pulled a winning lotto ticket with Brady and it made this question even possible.
He's now old and his GM issues are crystal clear and obviously the team is now poorly coached the past few years. Sub .500 coach for his career without Brady. Sorry so many forum members cannot deal with facts. But can we have differing opinions without being banned and muzzled?

By 2003, the only players from the Parcells era left on defense were McGinest, Law, Ted Johnson (who was only a run down player by this point) and Bruschi. And that was the best Patriots' defense in the team's history. Parcells didn't give Belichick Rodney Harrison, Rosevelt Colvin, Richard Seymour, Tyrone Poole, Roman Phifer, Mike Vrabel, Ted Washington, Eugene Wilson, Bobby Hamilton, etc.

And don't forget that McGinest was broken down in 2000 when Belichick got here. Willie was having back issues and was not playing at a high level. In fact after the 2000 season people debated whether Belichick would let him or Slade go with a lot of people wanting to keep Slade over McGinest. Belichick helped to revive his career by making him a 3-4 DE and having him play upright rather than his hand in the dirt.

And we are talking about Belichick the head coach. The head coach plays the players he is given by the GM. So who cares where he got the players. He created three great defenses in 2001, 2003, and 2004.

 

[Ladypatsfan]

What is this garbage?

 

[Ice_Ice_Brady]

By 2003, the only players from the Parcells era left on defense were McGinest, Law, Ted Johnson (who was only a run down player by this point) and Bruschi. And that was the best Patriots' defense in the team's history. Parcells didn't give Belichick Rodney Harrison, Rosevelt Colvin, Richard Seymour, Tyrone Poole, Roman Phifer, Mike Vrabel, Ted Washington, Eugene Wilson, Bobby Hamilton, etc.

And don't forget that McGinest was broken down in 2000 when Belichick got here. Willie was having back issues and was not playing at a high level. In fact after the 2000 season people debated whether Belichick would let him or Slade go with a lot of people wanting to keep Slade over McGinest. Belichick helped to revive his career by making him a 3-4 DE and having him play upright rather than his hand in the dirt.

And we are talking about Belichick the head coach. The head coach plays the players he is given by the GM. So who cares where he got the players. He created three great defenses in 2001, 2003, and 2004.

The Tom/Bill divorce has been hard on you. Remember, Bill still loves and it wasn’t your fault. Go take a nice, brisk walk and try to smile.

 

[Rob0729]

The Tom/Bill divorce has been hard on you. Remember, Bill still loves and it wasn’t your fault. Go take a nice, brisk walk and try to smile.

I live in your head. I love it.

Now quite down little man. The adults in the room at talking.

 

[TomPatriot]

A lot of people are really opinionated about the Greatest Coach of All Time despite being 1000X more familiar with Bill Belichick than:

• George Halas
• Paul Brown
• Vince Lombardi
• Tom Landry
• Chuck Noll
• Joe Gibbs
• Don Shula
• Bill Walsh

I’m just curious how one can have a reasonable discussion without any knowledge of other potential GOAT candidates.

What do all those coaches have in common? They all had down seasons, even Lombardi And Brown.

 

[sb1]

A lot of people are really opinionated about the Greatest Coach of All Time despite being 1000X more familiar with Bill Belichick than:

• George Halas
• Paul Brown
• Vince Lombardi
• Tom Landry
• Chuck Noll
• Joe Gibbs
• Don Shula
• Bill Walsh

I’m just curious how one can have a reasonable discussion without any knowledge of other potential GOAT candidates.

First comment there. Don’t know how much that guy knows about Bill but I’ll take his word for it

 

[sb1]

What do all those coaches have in common? They all had down seasons, even Lombardi And Brown.

To me being the GOAT coach means you should have elevated plenty of your talent to HOFers or guys close to that level. I’d be interested in any research that shows this info for these all time great coaches, with Belichick obviously included.

I don’t know how Bill compares to the others on that list in that category. I’m guessing not that favorably at least up to now.

 

[Pats1971]

By 2003, the only players from the Parcells era left on defense were McGinest, Law, Ted Johnson (who was only a run down player by this point) and Bruschi. And that was the best Patriots' defense in the team's history. Parcells didn't give Belichick Rodney Harrison, Rosevelt Colvin, Richard Seymour, Tyrone Poole, Roman Phifer, Mike Vrabel, Ted Washington, Eugene Wilson, Bobby Hamilton, etc.

And don't forget that McGinest was broken down in 2000 when Belichick got here. Willie was having back issues and was not playing at a high level. In fact after the 2000 season people debated whether Belichick would let him or Slade go with a lot of people wanting to keep Slade over McGinest. Belichick helped to revive his career by making him a 3-4 DE and having him play upright rather than his hand in the dirt.

And we are talking about Belichick the head coach. The head coach plays the players he is given by the GM. So who cares where he got the players. He created three great defenses in 2001, 2003, and 2004.

Isn't Bill the GM?

 

[Fuzz]

To me being the GOAT coach means you should have elevated plenty of your talent to HOFers or guys close to that level. I’d be interested in any research that shows this info for these all time great coaches, with Belichick obviously included.

I don’t know how Bill compares to the others on that list in that category. I’m guessing not that favorably at least up to now.

I don’t think any modern coach can compete in that regard due to free agency.

 

[Pats1971]

I don’t think any modern coach can compete in that regard due to free agency.

There was a Head coach that won 3 superbowls with 3 different QB's, thats pretty impressive.

 

[Rob0729]

Isn't Bill the GM?

Sure but this is about him being the greatest coach of all time or not.

 

[captain insano]

Agree. He has always acted like an ass to the reporters, but now as a losing coach it seems more egregious. Supposedly Brady and Gronk could not stand him at the end. Not good...he should have found a way to keep them

all coaches should treat reporters like the scum that they are. Bonus points for BB. And brady and meathead can gft.

 

[venecol]

No other coach id rather have on Sunday.

HCOF

 

[stcjones]

I wonder if he retires in a year or two without having a good run or even making the playoffs, does that hurt his case for goat? Ironic that if he retired when brady left he would probably be considered better.

Yes.He.Is.

 

[venecol]

Still the greatest coach. Yes.

6 SB wins in 9 trips

13 AFC title games

Holding Rams to 3 points

 

[TomPatriot]

To me being the GOAT coach means you should have elevated plenty of your talent to HOFers or guys close to that level. I’d be interested in any research that shows this info for these all time great coaches, with Belichick obviously included.

I don’t know how Bill compares to the others on that list in that category. I’m guessing not that favorably at least up to now.

I disagree with your frame of reference. How many players you elevate to HOF status is irrelevant in a team game. Give a great coach slightly above average NFL players and no future HOFers or near future HOFers and watch that team win.