Content Post another late night rant

[Steve102]

One thing and then I will not get back into rehashing the divorce of Brady and Belichick.

 

[amfootball]

Felger's argument that this year's Bucs prove you can spend money is stupid. The Bucs are clearly in Super Bowl or bust mode this year. They know that they are living on borrowed time on their Super Bowl window and either next year or the year after they are going to have to basically rebuild without Brady, Gronk, David, Suh, and several other key players.

Belichick built the Patriots to be competitive for the Super Bowl year in and year out. The teams that follow the Bucs' model tend to be contenders for a year or two and then fall back into being average or worse. With a 44 year old Brady, that is a gamble worth taking since when Brady is gone or his skills diminish enough they are going to fall back in the pack.

And if the Bucs' defensive problems of last night is a trend for the season, people are going to see how much Belichick means to the Patriots. There were many years that Belichick pieced together the defense with gum and shoe string to make it at least competitive so Brady didn't have to win every game throwing for 4 TDs and nearly 400 yards.

The Bucs are not in cap trouble. They have a slew of young talent on rookie contracts because Licht has been hitting on his drafts since 2015. The Bucs have not just spent money like some wild team clawing after another trophy. They got most of their FAs on good deals this off-season because of the depressed cap. They have Brady on an insanely great deal given his level of play/production. They are paying both Gronk and AB peanuts.

They are more of a model of how you can build an insanely competitive team through the draft and then add quality FAs for cheap. Licht should be in the running for GM of the year if they make it back to the Bowl.

 

[Rob0729]

The Bucs are not in cap trouble. They have a slew of young talent on rookie contracts because Licht has been hitting on his drafts since 2015. The Bucs have not just spent money like some wild team clawing after another trophy. They got most of their FAs on good deals this off-season because of the depressed cap. They have Brady on an insanely great deal given his level of play/production. They are paying both Gronk and AB peanuts.

They are more of a model of how you can build an insanely competitive team through the draft and then add quality FAs for cheap. Licht should be in the running for GM of the year if they make it back to the Bowl.

They are not in cap trouble, but they have a lot of older players and players who are getting close to ending their rookie deals that will get more money elsewhere and they won't be able to keep them all. Godwin is going to break the bank next year and Vea will break it the year after. They cannot give every player top of the market deals. Lavonte David, JPP, Jensen, Suh, Gronk, AB, Gholston, and others are already in their 30s (several are well into their 30s). How many more years do you think these players have left? In the next few years, they are going to lose key pieces on both sides of the ball and they are keeping them all together this year for one more run at the Super Bowl. The team will start to break up next year.

If they make it back to the Super Bowl, Licht deserves to win GM of the year. But that award is for what the team is like that year and not what it will be in 2-3 years.

 

[203Pat]

The voided years were the only way they could give Tom some extra money under the cap while be able to add to the core in 2019. 2020 was going to be a rebuild no matter who was QB. Call it nonsense but that is fact.

What is your definition of "commit"? I don't know what that means?

Guerrero started subscribing different treatments and prognosis of injuries which conflicted with team doctors and trainers. That isn't a BB ego thing. That is a player's trainer undermining the organization.

Money wasn't going to get Tom to stay. We've been over this.

We disagree. What drives me nuts is fans think we win at the same rate over 20 years without BB. Madness.

Absolutely. Super Bowls in 2014, 2016 and 2018 and drafting #31 or #32 every year prove he knows how to built winners despite picking low in drafts. If they went 2-14 or 8-8 every year then I would agree with you. I'm not going to slam BB for winning Super Bowls. Jesus.

Let's revisit this question after the season. I think he is on the right path Time will prove us right or wrong.

There are always ways to maneuver money around and Bill has been doing it for 20 years. Why all of a sudden the need to stop in 2019? Because he knew the roster was bungled so badly it needed a reset. I still would rather have ridden it out with Brady for 2-3 more years and keep kicking the can down the road and do a full rebuild when Tom retired. I don't know why Bill was so anxious to get a head start on a rebuild for any other reason than to prove that he could win without Tom Brady. People act like retaining Brady was impossible salary cap wise when Bill could have given him the $25 mill he wanted for the next three years in 2019. I mean don't pay a guard almost $15 million and you save plenty of money right there.

I am on record about a dozen times saying neither wins 6 rings without the other but if I am picking who is more important to the success I say it is Brady. I am sure if Bill was the one who left and Brady stayed my thought wouldn't get anywhere near the pushback they get from some people on here.

People want to just point to the super bowl banners and say "See!" and think that that wins the roster building argument. Yes the point of the whole thing is to win Super Bowls and no one is taking that away from Bill but those rings were won with guys from that 2009 to 2013 string of drafts. That stretch for Bill was an absolute homer run as far as I am concerned. Some of the cornerstone guys of the second half of the dynasty came in that stretch. Once those guys started to age and weren't replaced by new talented draft picks they were either replaced by busts, or by veterans who cost more. When you start whiffing on guys more and more in the draft you start to overextend as far as the salary cap goes and you have to pay up and it started to snowball.

 

[Pats2000]

Brady has been "lucky" for two decades.

Got down on his luck in 2019, 2008, 2006, 2002.

 

[amfootball]

They are not in cap trouble, but they have a lot of older players and players who are getting close to ending their rookie deals that will get more money elsewhere and they won't be able to keep them all. Godwin is going to break the bank next year and Vea will break it the year after. They cannot give every player top of the market deals. Lavonte David, JPP, Jensen, Suh, Gronk, AB, Gholston, and others are already in their 30s (several are well into their 30s). How many more years do you think these players have left? In the next few years, they are going to lose key pieces on both sides of the ball and they are keeping them all together this year for one more run at the Super Bowl. The team will start to break up next year.

If they make it back to the Super Bowl, Licht deserves to win GM of the year. But that award is for what the team is like that year and not what it will be in 2-3 years.

As with any team, it depends how their drafts go. They just drafted Trask to be the next QB. Much of their success post-Brady will hinge on his development. They can certainly draft replacements for their older players or acquire price friendly FAs or swing some trades. But their team building philosophy has been excellent for 6 seasons now. It is the main reason Brady wanted to sign there and also why Gronk/AB came.

 

[RobertWeathers]

11 of Tampa's 22 starters in the SB were drafted/UFA by Litch.

In 2018, 16 of the NEPs 22 starters were drafted/UFA by BB.

In 2022 the NEP and TB have about the same in committed cap space. Both will have plenty of space to operate.

But Litch is somehow better than BB at drafting and managing the cap.

 

[amfootball]

11 of Tampa's 22 starters in the SB were drafted/UFA by Litch.

In 2018, 16 of the NEPs 22 starters were drafted/UFA by BB.

In 2022 the NEP and about the same in committed cap charges as TB.

But Litch is somehow better than BB at drafting and managing the cap.

What is your reasoning for why our cap was upside down in 2020 to where Bill admitted to taking a mulligan on the season?

 

[Tunescribe]

The last 18 months had radicalized too many of us too much.

Just a minor symptom of what is building toward and eventually will culminate in armageddon.

 

[IllegalContact]

Totally agree. I want both teams to win when they play. Patriots moreso, but I'm not looking forward to all the cat fights I'll be involved in leading up to the game.

First season I remember as a kid

I remember watching Plunkett get pounded mercilessly

I remember the Pats crashing and burning in 1978 when Fairbanks left

I remember watching half the team get hurt in the 1982 preseason

I remember watching John Stephens steamroll someone, put them in the hospital, and then never be able to effectively run again.

 

[Rob0729]

As with any team, it depends how their drafts go. They just drafted Trask to be the next QB. Much of their success post-Brady will hinge on his development. They can certainly draft replacements for their older players or acquire price friendly FAs or swing some trades. But their team building philosophy has been excellent for 6 seasons now. It is the main reason Brady wanted to sign there and also why Gronk/AB came.

Except from all accounts the Bucs were Brady's third choice after the 49ers and Bears. And the Bucs were one of the only teams that were interested in Brady. It wasn't like teams were fighting over each other to get Brady. Brady got a below market deal from the Bucs and it didn't seem like anyone was interested. Hell, from Brady's own account, one team chose to stick with a mediocre QB rather than try to sign him.

And Gronk and AB only came to the Bucs because of Brady. Not the Bucs. Gronk is on the record that Brady is the only QB he will play with and AB has loyalty to Brady for how he defended him during the whole ordeal he went through.

 

[RobertWeathers]

There are always ways to maneuver money around and Bill has been doing it for 20 years. Why all of a sudden the need to stop in 2019? Because he knew the roster was bungled so badly it needed a reset.

All a team accomplishes by "maneuvering" and moving money around is defer cap charges to future years.

The NEP have been the most disciplined football team in that regard. That's how you sustain a dynasty and not become a "one and done".

Did you want BB to do it another way these last 20 years?

I still would rather have ridden it out with Brady for 2-3 more years and keep kicking the can down the road and do a full rebuild when Tom retired. I don't know why Bill was so anxious to get a head start on a rebuild for any other reason than to prove that he could win without Tom Brady. People act like retaining Brady was impossible salary cap wise when Bill could have given him the $25 mill he wanted for the next three years in 2019. I mean don't pay a guard almost $15 million and you save plenty of money right there.

They didn't pay Thuney. What does that tell you. They paid players they needed to improve. WR, LB, TE.

Again you think Tom wanted money. Tom wanted much more than that and was going to pout in 2020. Not fair to him or the team.

I am on record about a dozen times saying neither wins 6 rings without the other but if I am picking who is more important to the success I say it is Brady. I am sure if Bill was the one who left and Brady stayed my thought wouldn't get anywhere near the pushback they get from some people on here.

People want to just point to the super bowl banners and say "See!" and think that that wins the roster building argument. Yes the point of the whole thing is to win Super Bowls and no one is taking that away from Bill but those rings were won with guys from that 2009 to 2013 string of drafts. That stretch for Bill was an absolute homer run as far as I am concerned. Some of the cornerstone guys of the second half of the dynasty came in that stretch. Once those guys started to age and weren't replaced by new talented draft picks they were either replaced by busts, or by veterans who cost more. When you start whiffing on guys more and more in the draft you start to overextend as far as the salary cap goes and you have to pay up and it started to snowball.

In 2018 the NEP fielded 16 of 22 starters who where drafted/UFAs. That is an incredible number. These were players who were cornerstones of Dynasty v2. To say BB can't draft or find talent to build around a franchise QB is complete ********.

How did BB backfill cornerstone players by picking in the bottom 1/2 of rounds every year? Answer is he does it through FA which requires significant cash payouts and cap space and gets lucky with UFAs (See JC Jackson, Malcolm, etc) and you still need to spend 10-12% of your cap on Tom.

 

[amfootball]

Except from all accounts the Bucs were Brady's third choice after the 49ers and Bears. And the Bucs were one of the only teams that were interested in Brady. It wasn't like teams were fighting over each other to get Brady. Brady got a below market deal from the Bucs and it didn't seem like anyone was interested. Hell, from Brady's own account, one team chose to stick with a mediocre QB rather than try to sign him.

And Gronk and AB only came to the Bucs because of Brady. Not the Bucs. Gronk is on the record that Brady is the only QB he will play with and AB has loyalty to Brady for how he defended him during the whole ordeal he went through.

I never read anything that Brady was considering the Bears. I agree overall that he did not have a lot of offers but the Chargers did want him and they were a very talented team too like the Bucs but ultimately he did choose the Bucs and he has said himself and he loved their personnel and Licht and Arians. So I will have to take him at his word. But even that aside, for them to win the SB last year like they did speaks volumes to Licht's team building. I mean Brady was great but the offense had levels of depth and the defense was downright beastly. They really had the perfect combo of young talent with vet talent.

I really don't know what Felger and Mazz are getting at with their cap talk with regards to the Bucs or Pats. Bill has always built a team comprised of mid-tier talent because he values depth over superstars. It certainly served him well. Our roster deteriorated IMO because he did not extend our talent from the 2010s and did not replace them through the draft. It is not because he mis-managed the cap or did not spend enough money. It was simply poor roster mgmt. It happens. The Bucs have had excellent roster mgmt going back to 2015 which has sent them up for this run.

 

[Rob0729]

What is your reasoning for why our cap was upside down in 2020 to where Bill admitted to taking a mulligan on the season?

One season in like 20 years the Pats were upside down.

 

[50-yard-line]

The Bucs are not in cap trouble. They have a slew of young talent on rookie contracts because Licht has been hitting on his drafts since 2015. The Bucs have not just spent money like some wild team clawing after another trophy. They got most of their FAs on good deals this off-season because of the depressed cap. They have Brady on an insanely great deal given his level of play/production. They are paying both Gronk and AB peanuts.

They are more of a model of how you can build an insanely competitive team through the draft and then add quality FAs for cheap. Licht should be in the running for GM of the year if they make it back to the Bowl.

Yes and no.

They'll owe Brady $40 million after next year in void years on his extension.

Evans has a hit of 20+ and 21+ million next year and 2023.

Godwin is on a franchise year.

Suh, Gronk, AB, and Fournette are all rentals, essentially.

They've got two more cheap years of Devin White, then a hefty 5th year option. And another couple of years with Wirfs, so those help.

But they've got dead money for years with Evans, David, Brady.

They are in win-now mode, as they should be.

 

[captain stone]

The Bucs are not in cap trouble. They have a slew of young talent on rookie contracts because Licht has been hitting on his drafts since 2015. The Bucs have not just spent money like some wild team clawing after another trophy. They got most of their FAs on good deals this off-season because of the depressed cap. They have Brady on an insanely great deal given his level of play/production. They are paying both Gronk and AB peanuts.

They are more of a model of how you can build an insanely competitive team through the draft and then add quality FAs for cheap. Licht should be in the running for GM of the year if they make it back to the Bowl.

Could well be true for the other years, but 2016, off the top of my head, was a Horrible draft for Licht:

2016 Tampa Bay Buccaneers Draftees | Pro-Football-Reference.com

Check out the 2016 Tampa Bay Buccaneers complete list of drafted players and more on Pro-Football-Reference.com.

www.pro-football-reference.com

 

[Rob0729]

I never read anything that Brady was considering the Bears. I agree overall that he did not have a lot of offers but the Chargers did want him and they were a very talented team too like the Bucs but ultimately he did choose the Bucs and he has said himself and he loved their personnel and Licht and Arians. So I will have to take him at his word. But even that aside, for them to win the SB last year like they did speaks volumes to Licht's team building. I mean Brady was great but the offense had levels of depth and the defense was downright beastly. They really had the perfect combo of young talent with vet talent.

I really don't know what Felger and Mazz are getting at with their cap talk with regards to the Bucs or Pats. Bill has always built a team comprised of mid-tier talent because he values depth over superstars. It certainly served him well. Our roster deteriorated IMO because he did not extend our talent from the 2010s and did not replace them through the draft. It is not because he mis-managed the cap or did not spend enough money. It was simply poor roster mgmt. It happens. The Bucs have had excellent roster mgmt going back to 2015 which has sent them up for this run.

I don't know if the Chargers actually wanted him. But it was moot since Giselle reportedly vetoed him going to either LA team because she hates LA.

And Belichick has been crappy at drafting in recent years. I don't think anyone can disagree with that. I don't think he has been bad in free agency though.

 

[amfootball]

I don't know if the Chargers actually wanted him. But it was moot since Giselle reportedly vetoed him going to either LA team because she hates LA.

And Belichick has been crappy at drafting in recent years. I don't think anyone can disagree with that. I don't think he has been bad in free agency though.

I think it was because his son with Bridget lives in NY and he didn't want to be across from the country from him. Tom did say one of his considerations was making sure he was close to his son.

 

[Rob0729]

Yes and no.

They'll owe Brady $40 million after next year in void years on his extension.

Evans has a hit of 20+ and 21+ million next year and 2023.

Godwin is on a franchise year.

Suh, Gronk, AB, and Fournette are all rentals, essentially.

They've got two more cheap years of Devin White, then a hefty 5th year option. And another couple of years with Wirfs, so those help.

But they've got dead money for years with Evans, David, Brady.

They are in win-now mode, as they should be.

Vea is in his fifth year option next year and will break the bank the following year.

 

[Rob0729]

I think it was because his son with Bridget lives in NY and he didn't want to be across from the country from him. Tom did say one of his considerations was making sure he was close to his son.

By all accounts, San Fran was his first choice.