Patriots-Eagles Joint Practice (8/17)

[TheRainMaker]

You are joking right? This was in January and the player admits he was injured.

You missed the entire point.

 

[Ring 6]

No you came here because you are obsessed with me.

 

[Ring 6]

You missed the entire point.

That IRing an injured player in January is proof that teams make up injuries to keep from cutting healthy players?

 

[TheRainMaker]

That IRing an injured player in January is proof that teams make up injuries to keep from cutting healthy players?

You’re still not seeing it.

 

[Ring 6]

You’re still not seeing it.

What point are you trying to make?

 

[ashley]

Good article by Zach- 8 things we learned from the joint practices with the Eagles:


1. There’s still no answer to the quarterback question
Neither Cam Newton nor Mac Jones separated himself in the Patriots’ most important and highly scrutinized roster battle. Jones was the better passer on Day 1, but not by a significant margin. Newton turned in a near-perfect statistical performance the following day, despite some gripes about his checkdowns. Jones opened the second joint practice with a horrid interception but quickly rebounded, completing every one of his passes thereafter. Across the two days, Newton saw the majority of reps with the first-team offensive line and against Philadelphia’s top defense, though Jones received a share of those, as well. Both remain in QB1 contention. But with 15 practices and one preseason game in the books, this race still is too close to call.

2. The tight end group is in rough shape
The Patriots practiced with just one tight end (Devin Asiasi) on Tuesday. That’s almost unheard of at this point in the NFL calendar. Asiasi likely will be the only active tight end Thursday night, too, as Hunter Henry (shoulder), Jonnu Smith (ankle) and Matt LaCosse (undisclosed) recover from injuries. That’s a big opportunity for the 2020 third-round pick, who managed just two catches as a rookie last season and missed the start of training camp after testing positive for COVID-19. The Patriots released roster long shots David Wells and Troy Fumagalli this week.

3. Rotating at running back
The Patriots ditched the first team/second team divide among their running backs this week, giving all six of them (Damien Harris, James White, Sony Michel, Brandon Bolden, Rhamondre Stevenson and J.J. Taylor) reps with the starting offense. Teams rarely carry more than five running backs on a 53-man roster, so one member of this group likely will be gone by Week 1.

4. No surprises in the receiving corps
Kendrick Bourne let slip over the weekend that the Patriots plan to use him, Nelson Agholor and Jakobi Meyers as their top three receivers to open the season. That’s no surprise. Meyers and Bourne (in that order) have been the Patriots’ most consistent wideouts in camp, and Agholor brings a dangerous vertical element that no other New England receiver can replicate. The expensive ex-Eagle enjoyed his best practice in weeks Monday in his return to Philadelphia, though he had some issues with drops in 1-on-1 drills during both sessions. Bourne appeared to botch a route Monday, leading to a Jones incompletion, but otherwise was involved and productive. Meyers continues to be the team’s most reliable target, with his six catches in 7-on-7s Tuesday nearly equaling all other wideouts’ combined total of eight.

5. A concerning lack of depth at cornerback
When everyone’s healthy, the Patriots have a rock-solid cornerback trio of Stephon Gilmore and J.C. Jackson on the outside and Jonathan Jones in the slot. But the depth behind them is shaky at best. With Gilmore and Jones both out of practice Tuesday, New England’s top three was Jackson and Joejuan Williams on the outside and Jalen Mills in the slot. Mills, who’s probably best-suited for a multipositional Swiss Army knife role, has spent most of the summer filling in for Gilmore on the perimeter. Williams isn’t even a lock to make the roster. It’s still unclear when Gilmore will be back in the mix, assuming he and the Patriots can come to terms on some sort a contract adjustment. The Patriots might want to look for outside reinforcements here before the regular season begins.

6. Matt Judon looks as advertised
The Pro Bowl edge rusher was a major problem for Philadelphia’s offense Monday, finishing with a pick-six, multiple sacks and at least one tackle for loss. He was similarly disruptive in his cameo appearance against Washington in last week’s preseason opener. It’s early, but Judon looks worthy of the $54.5 million investment so far.

7. Christian Barmore should contribute
A nagging foot injury has limited Barmore this summer, but the rookie defensive tackle saw his rep count rise this week with Lawrence Guy sidelined. Barmore should see a fair amount of playing time this season, even if he likely won’t open the year as a starter. The big Alabama product been a pain for opponents to deal with in O-line/D-line 1-on-1s and has more than held his own in full-team settings.

8. The Kristian Wilkerson hype train is slowing
Wilkerson was one of the early risers in training camp, but his hands are threatening to keep him off the 53-man roster. Each joint practice featured one egregious drop by the young wideout, who also had a touchdown pass slip through his hands in last Thursday’s preseason game. Wilkerson has dropped a total of four passes over the Patriots’ last four competitive practices, and he’s struggled to create separation, leading to frequent pass breakups. He could wind up being this year’s version of Maurice Harris, who flamed out after a torrid start to camp in 2019.

 

[BTTA]

Coach actually said something beyond the usual Belichick Bingo:

"I think they felt like they did. I know we felt like we did, and it was very similar. Honestly, probably as similar as we could get to the way we would have practiced without Philadelphia if we just practiced with ourselves. I think that's an important part of developing your team is learning how to practice and practicing so that you get better, the guy you're working against get better, both sides of the ball get better. At the same time, it's not a full speed level, but it's a level where we can work and improve and try to minimize the risk to having a lot of guys on the ground and having piles and things like that. That's how we practice. It's obvious that's how the Eagles practice. I thought we had a good working practice."

 

[jah]

Good article by Zach- 8 things we learned from the joint practices with the Eagles:


1. There’s still no answer to the quarterback question
Neither Cam Newton nor Mac Jones separated himself in the Patriots’ most important and highly scrutinized roster battle. Jones was the better passer on Day 1, but not by a significant margin. Newton turned in a near-perfect statistical performance the following day, despite some gripes about his checkdowns. Jones opened the second joint practice with a horrid interception but quickly rebounded, completing every one of his passes thereafter. Across the two days, Newton saw the majority of reps with the first-team offensive line and against Philadelphia’s top defense, though Jones received a share of those, as well. Both remain in QB1 contention. But with 15 practices and one preseason game in the books, this race still is too close to call.

2. The tight end group is in rough shape
The Patriots practiced with just one tight end (Devin Asiasi) on Tuesday. That’s almost unheard of at this point in the NFL calendar. Asiasi likely will be the only active tight end Thursday night, too, as Hunter Henry (shoulder), Jonnu Smith (ankle) and Matt LaCosse (undisclosed) recover from injuries. That’s a big opportunity for the 2020 third-round pick, who managed just two catches as a rookie last season and missed the start of training camp after testing positive for COVID-19. The Patriots released roster long shots David Wells and Troy Fumagalli this week.

3. Rotating at running back
The Patriots ditched the first team/second team divide among their running backs this week, giving all six of them (Damien Harris, James White, Sony Michel, Brandon Bolden, Rhamondre Stevenson and J.J. Taylor) reps with the starting offense. Teams rarely carry more than five running backs on a 53-man roster, so one member of this group likely will be gone by Week 1.

4. No surprises in the receiving corps
Kendrick Bourne let slip over the weekend that the Patriots plan to use him, Nelson Agholor and Jakobi Meyers as their top three receivers to open the season. That’s no surprise. Meyers and Bourne (in that order) have been the Patriots’ most consistent wideouts in camp, and Agholor brings a dangerous vertical element that no other New England receiver can replicate. The expensive ex-Eagle enjoyed his best practice in weeks Monday in his return to Philadelphia, though he had some issues with drops in 1-on-1 drills during both sessions. Bourne appeared to botch a route Monday, leading to a Jones incompletion, but otherwise was involved and productive. Meyers continues to be the team’s most reliable target, with his six catches in 7-on-7s Tuesday nearly equaling all other wideouts’ combined total of eight.

5. A concerning lack of depth at cornerback
When everyone’s healthy, the Patriots have a rock-solid cornerback trio of Stephon Gilmore and J.C. Jackson on the outside and Jonathan Jones in the slot. But the depth behind them is shaky at best. With Gilmore and Jones both out of practice Tuesday, New England’s top three was Jackson and Joejuan Williams on the outside and Jalen Mills in the slot. Mills, who’s probably best-suited for a multipositional Swiss Army knife role, has spent most of the summer filling in for Gilmore on the perimeter. Williams isn’t even a lock to make the roster. It’s still unclear when Gilmore will be back in the mix, assuming he and the Patriots can come to terms on some sort a contract adjustment. The Patriots might want to look for outside reinforcements here before the regular season begins.

6. Matt Judon looks as advertised
The Pro Bowl edge rusher was a major problem for Philadelphia’s offense Monday, finishing with a pick-six, multiple sacks and at least one tackle for loss. He was similarly disruptive in his cameo appearance against Washington in last week’s preseason opener. It’s early, but Judon looks worthy of the $54.5 million investment so far.

7. Christian Barmore should contribute
A nagging foot injury has limited Barmore this summer, but the rookie defensive tackle saw his rep count rise this week with Lawrence Guy sidelined. Barmore should see a fair amount of playing time this season, even if he likely won’t open the year as a starter. The big Alabama product been a pain for opponents to deal with in O-line/D-line 1-on-1s and has more than held his own in full-team settings.

8. The Kristian Wilkerson hype train is slowing
Wilkerson was one of the early risers in training camp, but his hands are threatening to keep him off the 53-man roster. Each joint practice featured one egregious drop by the young wideout, who also had a touchdown pass slip through his hands in last Thursday’s preseason game. Wilkerson has dropped a total of four passes over the Patriots’ last four competitive practices, and he’s struggled to create separation, leading to frequent pass breakups. He could wind up being this year’s version of Maurice Harris, who flamed out after a torrid start to camp in 2019.

Forgot about Maurice Harris, but that's a good comparison for Wilkerson. Still not inconceivable that Harry will fall off again and surrender his lead in the position battle.

A few weeks (maybe just one) ago, it seemed like both Harry and Wilkerson were doing well and the decision would be tough in a good way. Now it looks more like we have to choose which guy who sucks to keep.

 

[Sicilian]

Forgot about Maurice Harris, but that's a good comparison for Wilkerson. Still not inconceivable that Harry will fall off again and surrender his lead in the position battle.

A few weeks (maybe just one) ago, it seemed like both Harry and Wilkerson were doing well and the decision would be tough in a good way. Now it looks more like we have to choose which guy who sucks to keep.

Since it's a depth WR position, try to think of it more like this:

Do you prefer a big body, red zone option who blocks well and catches everything thrown his way, but who isn't going to be open consistently and has very little role between the 20's?

Or do you want a guy who seems to get open with more regularity, who contributes on ST, but who has the dropsies and doesn't do much for you in the red zone?

Both have warts. Neither is awe inspiring. But given it's a battle for a depth WR spot, looking at what they can do versus what they can't can make the decision seem a little more meaningful.

 

[BTTA]

Other information from Jeff Howe @The Athletic that I didn't see elsewhere:

• Christian Barmore has worked his way into the starting rotation in Lawrence Guy’s absence, and the rookie absolutely looks the part.
• Jalen Mills kicked inside in Jon Jones’ absence. Joejuan Williams started on the outside and might have an edge on Michael Jackson in the race for a roster spot.
• Quinn Nordin closed practice by going 3-for-4 on field goal attempts. He made from 33, 40 and 44 yards before hooking it left from 46.
  • That's the first FG he's missed in a month, right?
• After working through punt periods Monday, the special teams periods Tuesday focused on kickoffs.
• The Patriots will have a closed walk-through Wednesday before their preseason game against the Eagles on Thursday.
  • Every other media report I've seen has said the Pats are off today. (I guess to the media, if they aren't allowed to watch, the Pats are "off".)

 

[BTTA]

Since it's a depth WR position, try to think of it more like this:

Do you prefer a big body, red zone option who blocks well and catches everything thrown his way, but who isn't going to be open consistently and has very little role between the 20's?

Or do you want a guy who seems to get open with more regularity, who contributes on ST, but who has the dropsies and doesn't do much for you in the red zone?

Both have warts. Neither is awe inspiring. But given it's a battle for a depth WR spot, looking at what they can do versus what they can't can make the decision seem a little more meaningful.

That's the best take on the final WR spot I've seen yet.

 

[ashley]

Forgot about Maurice Harris, but that's a good comparison for Wilkerson. Still not inconceivable that Harry will fall off again and surrender his lead in the position battle.

A few weeks (maybe just one) ago, it seemed like both Harry and Wilkerson were doing well and the decision would be tough in a good way. Now it looks more like we have to choose which guy who sucks to keep.

Yeah I get worried about those receivers who flash during training camp and then once they get in games, they either disappear (Harry) or have the case of the dropsies(Wilkerson). At this point even though Harry brings nothing to the table in terms of ST, I would probably think he has a slight advantage. This game against Philly is going to be huge for both.

 

[ashley]

Since it's a depth WR position, try to think of it more like this:

Do you prefer a big body, red zone option who blocks well and catches everything thrown his way, but who isn't going to be open consistently and has very little role between the 20's?

Or do you want a guy who seems to get open with more regularity, who contributes on ST, but who has the dropsies and doesn't do much for you in the red zone?

Both have warts. Neither is awe inspiring. But given it's a battle for a depth WR spot, looking at what they can do versus what they can't can make the decision seem a little more meaningful.

Excellent post!!!

 

[Love The Drake]

I am hoping Wilkerson gets over the drops.
He reminds me a bit of Dante Stallworth athletically.

 

[jah]

Since it's a depth WR position, try to think of it more like this:

Do you prefer a big body, red zone option who blocks well and catches everything thrown his way, but who isn't going to be open consistently and has very little role between the 20's?

Or do you want a guy who seems to get open with more regularity, who contributes on ST, but who has the dropsies and doesn't do much for you in the red zone?

Both have warts. Neither is awe inspiring. But given it's a battle for a depth WR spot, looking at what they can do versus what they can't can make the decision seem a little more meaningful.

That's more or less why I'm giving the edge to Harry right now. Considering Gunner already occupies a WR/ST spot, it might be hard to justify another going to Wilkerson (but this logic only makes sense if you grade Wilkerson as an unambiguously worse WR than Harry). Then when you consider how we only have one tight end on the roster and he might not even be NFL ready (yet), it makes more sense to keep the red zone type of WR in Harry.

That being said, I don't see the need to spin this as a positive. Other teams in 2021, and Patriots teams in past years, have had better competition for the WR4 spot than this. It's pretty generous to say either of our guys bring much of anything to the table besides blocking for Harry and special teams for Wilkerson. If Harry is indeed a red zone threat who "catches everything thrown his way", I want the spot to go to him. I just don't know if that's really true.

 

[Love The Drake]

That's more or less why I'm giving the edge to Harry right now. Considering Gunner already occupies a WR/ST spot, it might be hard to justify another going to Wilkerson (but this logic only makes sense if you grade Wilkerson as an unambiguously worse WR than Harry). Then when you consider how we only have one tight end on the roster and he might not even be NFL ready (yet), it makes more sense to keep the red zone type of WR in Harry.

That being said, I don't see the need to spin this as a positive. Other teams in 2021, and Patriots teams in past years, have had better competition for the WR4 spot than this. It's pretty generous to say either of our guys bring much of anything to the table besides blocking for Harry and special teams for Wilkerson. If Harry is indeed a red zone threat who "catches everything thrown his way", I want the spot to go to him. I just don't know if that's really true.

We’ve seen in the past Harry get bullied by smaller corners for balls.
The fact Wilkerson can at least get open a d back has to respect the threat of him actually catching a ball.
I’m really hoping either player shows their worth on Thursday night.

 

[BTTA]

That's more or less why I'm giving the edge to Harry right now. Considering Gunner already occupies a WR/ST spot, it might be hard to justify another going to Wilkerson (but this logic only makes sense if you grade Wilkerson as an unambiguously worse WR than Harry). Then when you consider how we only have one tight end on the roster and he might not even be NFL ready (yet), it makes more sense to keep the red zone type of WR in Harry.

That being said, I don't see the need to spin this as a positive. Other teams in 2021, and Patriots teams in past years, have had better competition for the WR4 spot than this. It's pretty generous to say either of our guys bring much of anything to the table besides blocking for Harry and special teams for Wilkerson. If Harry is indeed a red zone threat who "catches everything thrown his way", I want the spot to go to him. I just don't know if that's really true.

Another way to think about it is that the investment into TE's this year will make that red zone roll less necessary for a WR. Also, Wilkerson could be Slater's replacement next year, as the WR/Gunner.

 

[Sicilian]

That's more or less why I'm giving the edge to Harry right now. Considering Gunner already occupies a WR/ST spot, it might be hard to justify another going to Wilkerson (but this logic only makes sense if you grade Wilkerson as an unambiguously worse WR than Harry). Then when you consider how we only have one tight end on the roster and he might not even be NFL ready (yet), it makes more sense to keep the red zone type of WR in Harry.

That being said, I don't see the need to spin this as a positive. Other teams in 2021, and Patriots teams in past years, have had better competition for the WR4 spot than this. It's pretty generous to say either of our guys bring much of anything to the table besides blocking for Harry and special teams for Wilkerson. If Harry is indeed a red zone threat who "catches everything thrown his way", I want the spot to go to him. I just don't know if that's really true.

Perhaps it's just what I do But I see your point. It's not so much that we need to think of it as a good development in a vacuum, like they should be happy with what their choices are. Just that when you're looking at it, there ARE things that these players do well and bring to the table. So while you wish the total value was higher, it's more than just suck vs. suck. I would also say that, while there are some teams with better WR4 situations than this, there aren't many. Most teams have to make some pretty non-optimal choices once you start getting to those parts of the roster.

If the TE's aren't back for week 1 (or not at 100% at least) I honestly think the best case scenario that can come from this is Harry makes the team and Wilkerson goes to the practice squad. Harry plays a red zone role and catches a couple TD's. Once Henry and Smith are back up to speed, you trade Harry before the deadline because he's actually shown SOMETHING and you get reasonable value for him. Wilkerson can then be promoted and you've got the TE's for their traditional red zone roles and Wilkerson can slot in wherever he's ready.

A lot has to go right in that above scenario obviously but hey, I said it was the "best" case.

 

[203Pat]

Good article by Zach- 8 things we learned from the joint practices with the Eagles:


1. There’s still no answer to the quarterback question
Neither Cam Newton nor Mac Jones separated himself in the Patriots’ most important and highly scrutinized roster battle. Jones was the better passer on Day 1, but not by a significant margin. Newton turned in a near-perfect statistical performance the following day, despite some gripes about his checkdowns. Jones opened the second joint practice with a horrid interception but quickly rebounded, completing every one of his passes thereafter. Across the two days, Newton saw the majority of reps with the first-team offensive line and against Philadelphia’s top defense, though Jones received a share of those, as well. Both remain in QB1 contention. But with 15 practices and one preseason game in the books, this race still is too close to call.

2. The tight end group is in rough shape
The Patriots practiced with just one tight end (Devin Asiasi) on Tuesday. That’s almost unheard of at this point in the NFL calendar. Asiasi likely will be the only active tight end Thursday night, too, as Hunter Henry (shoulder), Jonnu Smith (ankle) and Matt LaCosse (undisclosed) recover from injuries. That’s a big opportunity for the 2020 third-round pick, who managed just two catches as a rookie last season and missed the start of training camp after testing positive for COVID-19. The Patriots released roster long shots David Wells and Troy Fumagalli this week.

3. Rotating at running back
The Patriots ditched the first team/second team divide among their running backs this week, giving all six of them (Damien Harris, James White, Sony Michel, Brandon Bolden, Rhamondre Stevenson and J.J. Taylor) reps with the starting offense. Teams rarely carry more than five running backs on a 53-man roster, so one member of this group likely will be gone by Week 1.

4. No surprises in the receiving corps
Kendrick Bourne let slip over the weekend that the Patriots plan to use him, Nelson Agholor and Jakobi Meyers as their top three receivers to open the season. That’s no surprise. Meyers and Bourne (in that order) have been the Patriots’ most consistent wideouts in camp, and Agholor brings a dangerous vertical element that no other New England receiver can replicate. The expensive ex-Eagle enjoyed his best practice in weeks Monday in his return to Philadelphia, though he had some issues with drops in 1-on-1 drills during both sessions. Bourne appeared to botch a route Monday, leading to a Jones incompletion, but otherwise was involved and productive. Meyers continues to be the team’s most reliable target, with his six catches in 7-on-7s Tuesday nearly equaling all other wideouts’ combined total of eight.

5. A concerning lack of depth at cornerback
When everyone’s healthy, the Patriots have a rock-solid cornerback trio of Stephon Gilmore and J.C. Jackson on the outside and Jonathan Jones in the slot. But the depth behind them is shaky at best. With Gilmore and Jones both out of practice Tuesday, New England’s top three was Jackson and Joejuan Williams on the outside and Jalen Mills in the slot. Mills, who’s probably best-suited for a multipositional Swiss Army knife role, has spent most of the summer filling in for Gilmore on the perimeter. Williams isn’t even a lock to make the roster. It’s still unclear when Gilmore will be back in the mix, assuming he and the Patriots can come to terms on some sort a contract adjustment. The Patriots might want to look for outside reinforcements here before the regular season begins.

6. Matt Judon looks as advertised
The Pro Bowl edge rusher was a major problem for Philadelphia’s offense Monday, finishing with a pick-six, multiple sacks and at least one tackle for loss. He was similarly disruptive in his cameo appearance against Washington in last week’s preseason opener. It’s early, but Judon looks worthy of the $54.5 million investment so far.

7. Christian Barmore should contribute
A nagging foot injury has limited Barmore this summer, but the rookie defensive tackle saw his rep count rise this week with Lawrence Guy sidelined. Barmore should see a fair amount of playing time this season, even if he likely won’t open the year as a starter. The big Alabama product been a pain for opponents to deal with in O-line/D-line 1-on-1s and has more than held his own in full-team settings.

8. The Kristian Wilkerson hype train is slowing
Wilkerson was one of the early risers in training camp, but his hands are threatening to keep him off the 53-man roster. Each joint practice featured one egregious drop by the young wideout, who also had a touchdown pass slip through his hands in last Thursday’s preseason game. Wilkerson has dropped a total of four passes over the Patriots’ last four competitive practices, and he’s struggled to create separation, leading to frequent pass breakups. He could wind up being this year’s version of Maurice Harris, who flamed out after a torrid start to camp in 2019.

I came into this training camp thinking if Mac and Cam were close that it should be Mac that gets the starting job. With that being said if it is indeed close I think Bill would defer to Cam unfortunately. Unless Mac starts to light it up in the next couple preseason games/joint practice sessions I think we see Cam for at least the first month of the season.

The TE group was the thing I was most wary about. Coming in we had the two second year guys that I thought would get buried on the depth chart and not get many reps after already disappointing rookie seasons. Keene at this point may be a complete lost cause and Asiasi missed some time with Covid and from everything I have read has flashed here and there but hasn't done a lot. My biggest worry though with this TE group is the two big money guys. Both Smith and Henry had a history of injuries and just getting dinged up in general and so far both are dinged up. Maybe this is a sign of things to come or maybe this is minor and they are good for most of the regular season. Either way I don't want to see a repeat of last season where we get zero production out of the TE group.

At this point I am hoping we see more of any running back that isn't Sony Michel. Harris if he can stay healthy is assumed to be the lead back and Stevenson looks like he can play and hopefully avoids the year one bubble wrap. If Stevenson and Harris stay healthy I wouldn't mind stashing Sony as a healthy scratch until he is needed and then send him packing at the end of the year.

The receivers are a group I am almost as wary about as the TE's. I am very skeptical of Agholor and think he was a major overpay. It just feels like we have a bunch of complimentary guys with no real go to at receiver. Hopefully Meyers can continue to develop and become the go to in the slot role but that still seems like a lot to ask.

I have no idea what we will do at cornerback. I think it all hinges on Gilmore and at this point I don't know what is going on there. I know every beat writer all season seemed to think a deal would get done and there would be no issues but to me when all the beat writers are saying the same thing that makes me thing they all have the same source, which in this case would be someone on the Patriots side and not Gilmore's. It doesn't do anything to help Gilmore for his side to leak that there will be a deal done. Jackson is still best suited as a number two and I don't see us getting a deal done and think he is gone next year. With no Gilmore it seems like they have been trying Mills at the number two spot and from everything I have read he has been getting torched at corner. Hopefully he moves into the Duron Harmon role but I don't know if he has the coverage ability.

Judon is one I was skeptical about as it seems the Baltimore LBs never really pan out when the Ravens let them walk but he looked great in his few snaps last Thursday and from everything I have read he seems to look good in practice and be a high energy guy.

 

[jimnance]

Someone lectured me in a different thread about the origin of the term. Apparently it's from the 80s or early 90s (can't remember when, just that it was before I was born).

You a young pup