PATRIOTS TRAINING CAMP Day 11 Training Camp Thread - Monday August 9th

[borg]

I would be absolutely shocked if this happened...Dude sucked in college...He belongs on a practice squad.

Timeline:
2017........Nick Folk.....54.5% FG kicker in 4 Bucs games
2018........Nick Folk out of football
2019 Season....Nick Folk ....82.4% FG kicker in 7 Pats games

Feb '20.......Patriots hire Joe Houston.....aka....The Kicking Whisperer

2020 Season....Nick Folk .......92.9% FG kicker
2021 Preseason Day 9........Quinn Nordin (72% college kicker) goes 10/10 including multiple bombs

Patience My Captain, the healing has only just begun.
The Whisper requires our faith.

 

[BaconGrundleCandy]

Former NFL league MVP, has been to a Superbowl once before, former Heisman Winner, yeah I'll take my chances on him having a comeback and Bill is giving him first dibs.
Sorry that he doesn't look the part for you. But, for Boston I get it....

.

Terrible poster and a pos.

I usually find your thoughts on Skippy McDaniels amusing and occasionally on point, but the bolded points are nothing more than lazy excuse-making and just plain ****ing 'tard-ish ignorance.

His thoughts on Skippy were decent at best. Not exactly a stretch to think an OC like Josh would have influence on picks but there's zero evidence Josh is involved to the extent he makes it out to be. It's actually embarrassing. The guy gets fixated on topics but hasn't a clue what hrs talking about and wouldn't know context if it smacked him in the face.

 

[DropKickFlutie]

I usually find your thoughts on Skippy McDaniels amusing and occasionally on point

Yeah this is another point I restrained from making but Cam had a crap roster around him last year. Worse than the one Brady had the year before where even Brady only averaged 17 points per game from Oct31 to end of playoff exit. Multiple years of terrible drafting and no talent development and zero TE play which are all classic from the same OC. But I'm hopeful throwing a ton of money at the problem will have partially improved the situation.

 

[1960Pats]

I wouldn't discount the effect of the "Cheatriots" slander campaigns.

I've found out how well that campaign has worked in my dealings with other fans, even some of our own. Fake news wins again.

Luckily, the Red Flops are taking over as cheaters for the area. It's no coincidence that they brought back a manager that was a known cheater and had a huge lead in the division, only to have it all disappear after MLB started to crack down on cheating.

 

[Zuma]

Aaaand it begins...

Yes good call....it begins today and ends in about 2 week

 

[jdlboot14]

Apparently some people misunderstand the QB argument.
For those of us rooting for Mac, or even wanting him to start sooner than later, it's not that we hope Cam sucks if & when he plays.
I always want the team to win, and whoever is playing I'm hoping they do great... The issue is, do we want Cam to arbitrarily start this whole year just because he's a vet, and just because conventional wisdom says rookies should sit a year, if the evidence is pointing to Mac being able to run THIS OFFENSE better. Not perfectly, not without error, but better than what Cam has showed (in)consistently. I'm not saying we know that yet, but I assume we'll have a good idea after preseason. And I just don't want a long leash on Cam. I want BB to be able to turn the page and get the transition started earlier. Because Cam won't be here next year, so why waste another "bridge" year?

 

[moosekill]

I would be absolutely shocked if this happened...Dude sucked in college...He belongs on a practice squad.

Extra points 2018 35/38, 2019 45/46, 2020 28/29
Field goals 2018 19/24 55 yard long, 2019 11/16 50 yard long, 2020 2/5 46 yard long. Missed 3 in last game before that was 2/2.
It has been reported that because of Covid, Michigan did little if any practicing and almost no special teams work. Before that he was a pretty good kicker.

 

[patsinthesnow]

Apparently some people misunderstand the QB argument.
For those of us rooting for Mac, or even wanting him to start sooner than later, it's not that we hope Cam sucks if & when he plays.
I always want the team to win, and whoever is playing I'm hoping they do great... The issue is, do we want Cam to arbitrarily start this whole year just because he's a vet, and just because conventional wisdom says rookies should sit a year, if the evidence is pointing to Mac being able to run THIS OFFENSE better. Not perfectly, not without error, but better than what Cam has showed (in)consistently. I'm not saying we know that yet, but I assume we'll have a good idea after preseason. And I just don't want a long leash on Cam. I want BB to be able to turn the page and get the transition started earlier. Because Cam won't be here next year, so why waste another "bridge" year?

You wouldn’t want to start a JAG for a year over a highly drafted rookie at any other position. Replace Cam Newton with Andy Dalton, Tyrod Taylor, etc, & I think more would be in favor of starting Mac week 1.

 

[Sicilian]

You wouldn’t want to start a JAG for a year over a highly drafted rookie at any other position. Replace Cam Newton with Andy Dalton, Tyrod Taylor, etc, & I think more would be in favor of starting Mac week 1.

I think the important distinction though is that no one (outside of one, unnamed insane person), is clamoring for Newton to start no matter what. Anyone in favor of Cam in week 1 is assuming that Mac needs more time to adjust to the NFL game and NFL life, and some of those checkboxes he'll need to fill to be ready are going to be hard to earn before week 1. Of course he can do it, and plenty of rookie QB's have before him, but if he doesn't earn the job by September 12th, it doesn't mean Cam is the starter all year, OR that Mac has somehow failed for not unseating him immediately. I think any QB that has started in this league would be viewed the same as Cam in this particular situation.

And I still find the need to remind people that this team was .500 with Cam and a worse roster last year. So if he has to be the guy from week 1 until whenever Mac is ready to take over, we're not automatically screwed for 2021.

 

[One-If-By-Sea]

Surely you can't be serious.

Yes very serious. Very instinctual. Great player in college, leader on his team. Not the most athletic hence the late round pick, but the kid loves to play football and plays hard.

 

[goheels22002]

I think the important distinction though is that no one (outside of one, unnamed insane person), is clamoring for Newton to start no matter what. Anyone in favor of Cam in week 1 is assuming that Mac needs more time to adjust to the NFL game and NFL life, and some of those checkboxes he'll need to fill to be ready are going to be hard to earn before week 1. Of course he can do it, and plenty of rookie QB's have before him, but if he doesn't earn the job by September 12th, it doesn't mean Cam is the starter all year, OR that Mac has somehow failed for not unseating him immediately. I think any QB that has started in this league would be viewed the same as Cam in this particular situation.

And I still find the need to remind people that this team was .500 with Cam and a worse roster last year. So if he has to be the guy from week 1 until whenever Mac is ready to take over, we're not automatically screwed for 2021.

From what I've seen so far, the 2021 Patriots are going to go where the defense takes them. Assuming Gilmore is at 100%, I see no weaknesses on defense. The big guys up front are filling their gaps and keeping blockers occupied. The edge rushers/LBs are continuing to show speed and ability get into the backfield. I have both Buffalo games circled on my calendar - those will be rock fights.

Cam should start through game four while the coaching staff works with Mac Jones and help him get into an NFL routine with an ever-changing, expanding playbook depending on the opponent. A year as an understudy will not diminish Jones' skill set at all, so no big loss there. If Cam reverts to 2020 Cam slow-to-read-defenses and looking to run when things get even slightly hairy, Belichick may pull the trigger and settle Jones into a 2001 Brady game-manager role. The Patriots have the backfield and TEs to grind out first downs. The offensive line depth is probably my greatest concern after a couple of weeks of TC.

 

[DropKickFlutie]

I'm curious if any attendees can confirm, but is Bourne running with the second unit more than the first? That's just a suspicion based on the snippets of data.

Yeah I think so, because think of who fills up the starting 11. A QB, and OLine, and RB, that's already 7 players. Add 2 starting TEs and Meyers+Agholor, that's a full starting 11. Bourne is then the first guy in whenever we don't use both tight ends on the field. This is another reason why I don't see any role for NKeal Harry, just trade the guy for a low pick instead of having him do nothing. Gunner or Tre can be that 4th/5th WR on the roster.

 

[Bill Lee]

currently the only thing that is in Cams favour is (perhaps his leadership) and mainly his experience compared to the rookie Mac, everything else they are at least on same level or Mac is already ahead of Cam

In addition to what you wrote, I think a big factor is where BB thinks the team as a whole should be going on offense, more towards a running approach which favors Cam, or a passing approach that favors Mac.

Curran and Perry said that even in training camp the play mix gets weighed more towards running while Cam is in and more towards passing when Mac is in.

Personally I'm not a fan of the shift towards running QBs in the league, and gotta say I was disappointed with how the team looked with Cam last season. Things were OK when we stayed on schedule with down and distance, but when we got third and long it was ugly. I feel we will have a better chance with Mac, once the coaching staff feels he is ready to step in.

Because stats are for losers people....

Overall passing stats excluding the day 9 walk through in the stadium...

Cam 103/164 63%, 7 INT
Mac 124/187 66%, 3 INT

Emphasizing these kinds of stats during training camp feels like a media creation to me.

 

[Zuma]

Tracking these kinds of stats during training camp feels like a media creation to me.

I find the numbers interesting. I'm not in the media.

 

[Bill Lee]

I find the numbers interesting. I'm not in the media.

Interesting, OK.
Significant? Hmm...

 

[Zuma]

Interesting, OK.
Significant? Hmm...

No...they won't matter nearly as much as the preseason. Mac has had 23 more passing attempts so far. The media has mentioned this as well. I think it matters in a number of ways. Why does Cam have less if he will be the "starter"? Why is Cam handing off more then Mac? And when are those reps coming? I don't blow this off as meaningless and I doubt the coaches do as well. Preseason is where the it counts more however.

I chuckle when people ignore trends and stats...as if for instance none of that comes into decisions on the field such as when to return a punt or not. Their are millions of numbers across the league crunched constantly but the "stats are for losers" crowd love their pitchforks.

 

[Bill Lee]

No...they won't matter nearly as much as the preseason. Mac has had 23 more passing attempts so far. The media has mentioned this as well. I think it matters in a number of ways. Why does Cam have less if he will be the "starter"? Why is Cam handing off more then Mac? And when are those reps coming? I don't blow this off as meaningless and I doubt the coaches do as well. Preseason is where the it counts more however.

I chuckle when people ignore trends and stats...as if for instance none of that comes into decisions on the field such as when to return a punt or not. Their are millions of numbers across the league crunched constantly but the "stats are for losers" crowd loves their pitchforks.

In other words, when considering these high level passing stats, they are somewhere on the spectrum of meaningful, significant,, meh, insignificant and meaningless. I'd vote for insignificant rather than meaningless or meh. If they were significant we'd start to hear of players complaining that they are being given more difficult plays to execute, being asked to work against stronger defenses, etc. When I say insignificant I don't mean has zero significance, I mean it has some but not much significance.

Another axis is the one that has interesting at one end and uninteresting at the other. I think its somewhere on the interesting side of the axis, but not very far away from the origin.

 

[Zuma]

In other words, when considering these high level passing stats, they are somewhere on the spectrum of meaningful, significant,, meh, insignificant and meaningless. I'd vote for insignificant rather than meaningless or meh. If they were significant we'd start to hear of players complaining that they are being given more difficult plays to execute, being asked to work against stronger defenses, etc. When I say insignificant I don't mean has zero significance, I mean it has some but not much significance.

Another axis is the one that has interesting at one end and uninteresting at the other. I think its somewhere on the interesting side of the axis, but not very far away from the origin.

I would say that Cam seemed to have a bit of moping in his posture while standing behind Mac the other day...watching him get significantly more reps. As a whole though..I agree with you.

 

[BaconGrundleCandy]

Yeah this is another point I restrained from making but Cam had a crap roster around him last year. Worse than the one Brady had the year before where even Brady only averaged 17 points per game from Oct31 to end of playoff exit. Multiple years of terrible drafting and no talent development and zero TE play which are all classic from the same OC. But I'm hopeful throwing a ton of money at the problem will have partially improved the situation.

Dude just said you're a moron and you come back with this? I'm glad this point has never been made before.

It's funny how you arm chair GMs who watch the games in the heat of the moment think you have a clue what you're talking about. Go back and watch the coaches film from last year and you might actually see the crap sandwich Cam had to work with last year. I know the "hipster" thing to do around here is bash him and say he isn't a legit starting NFL Qb but if you actually took the time to research what it was you're talking about you'd undoubtedly be wrong and you might JUST MIGHT learn something in the process.

Educate yourself.

You do realize that scouts are paid to isolate players/prospects and strictly evaluate them. Block out the bad protection, lesser "skill" positions etc and focus solely on a player. That's literally what scouts do.

So the whole "look at what he was working with / crap sandwich" excuse is casual as hell.

More talent outside isn't fixing Cam's mechanics. Better TE's aren't fixing his pocket presence. His accuracy has nothing to do with who's on the outside. His launch being low and throwing it into the fask mask of a IDL has 0 to do with someone else. Better WR's aren't making him pick up and recognize a blitz.

Also save the "watch film" bs. I've been watching A22 of Cam since college and I post some every week on here. With respect I couldn't get through 20 mins of the one you posted. No insight and certainly not education lol. There's like 4 videos and nothing worth while. Feel free to post your own if you think you know what you're doing. I mean you called us out ... let's see what you got?

 

[jdlboot14]

the issue with starting Cam for the first month - just to get Mac ready - is that if we're wanting Cam to be winning games, they'd have to give him all the starting reps in practice... and that wouldn't be beneficial to preparing Mac to start. So, being half-ass about either QB is not good.
However, just because BB has said Cam is the starter, doesn't mean he's not handling this like a true competition. Cam can be the default starter, and still allow for the 2nd string guy to beat him out because of their play on the field.