The 2nd Patriots dynasty does not happen without Edelman. > NFL Hall of Fame.

[Deus Irae]

What do all pros and probowls take into account other than stats?

Team success plays a role, as does availability of possibly preferred players, for 2 other aspects.

 

[A Defiant Goose]

Team success plays a role, as does availability of possibly preferred players, for 2 other aspects.

I don't think so. Joe Thomas off the top of my head.

 

[Deus Irae]

I don't think so. Joe Thomas off the top of my head.

Ok, if you can't admit something as blatantly obvious as this, we're done here. I'll just consider that ridiculous response to be your tap out.

 

[A Defiant Goose]

Ok, if you can't admit something as blatantly obvious as this, we're done here. I'll just consider that ridiculous response to be your tap out.

Ok you stretched an "all pros are the same thing as stats" argument out over 6 pages the real loser here is the people reading the thread

 

[lancerman]

It is strange to me that so many people claim “clutch“ and championships aren’t really Hall measurements, but it’s almost universally agreed that Vinatieri is “a first ballot Hall of Famer.”

A kicker, who was very accurate and played in a lot of postseason games, but who also wasn’t great on kickoffs of long FGs, a Hall of Famer, without putting a lot of weight on clutch/postseason? Longevity stats are great, but those alone probably don’t get a place kicker in.

Vinatieri has 4 rings (to Edelman's 3). 3 1st team All Pros to Edelman's zero. 3 Pro Bowls to Edelman's zero. Completed more field goals than anyone else in history. Scored more points than anyone else in history. Was on the 2000's All Decade team. Was on the NFL 100 Anniversary team.

So Vinatieri has an extra ring, records, and a bunch of accolades that Edelman doesn't have.

Vinatieri is also universally regarded as the best kicker of all time. Edelman isn't even the best pass catcher for the Pats in the dynasty era between Welker, Gronk and Moss.

 

[lancerman]

Why is it one or the other with you guys? Jules has rings, Wes doesn't. Other than that, they are very damned similar.

I can see the NFL films of Wes and Bill on the sidelines when Jules ran back an punt in pre-season. Way to compete.

The issue is they aren't similar. Wes was a 4 time All Pro, a 5 time Pro Bowler, led the league in receptions 3 times, has 5 seasons where he got more yards than Edelman's all time best season, has 5 seasons where he had more receptions than Edelman's all time best season, has 3 seasons where he had more TD's than Edelman's all time best season.

Welker was significantly better and universally viewed as one of the top receivers in the league at his peak. When you get All Pros, that means all the top writers are saying "yeah this guy is one of the top 5 best in the league at a minimum), when you get a first team they are saying you are top 3.

 

[Patriot Missile]

That’s one season.

We’re talking about the most dominant TE in NFL history here.

How did the rest of the seasons go with or without him? They most likely win in 2011 with a healthy Gronk. They most likely at least go to the Super Bowl in 2012. They had no shot against the Broncos in 2013 without him. They do not win against the Seahawks in 2014 without him.
They have no shot of beating the Broncos in 2015 without him. They get blown out by the Eagles in 2017 without him. He set up the game winner against the Rams in 2018.

The offense always ran through Gronk. Edelman was always the sidekick/complementary player. The importance of Gronk vs Edelman is disrespectful to even consider.

Had the Pats not drafted Gronk, I don’t even think Brady stays past 2014.

Without reading into it, I’m not sure how Gronk is even in the conversation regarding Edelman. Everyone who isn’t blind knows Gronk is going to the hall of fame as soon as he’s eligible.

I would agree that without Gronk there is no dynasty 2. He won some big games. A lot actually. He was dominant in the Seattle game and his 2 KC catches the 2nd Rams sb catch were game sealing. They really needed those when nothing was happening and he it done.

Why not both? Edelman also caught a td in the Seattle game, took a 1980’s style hit across the middle and held on. Had one of the greatest catches in sb history vs Atlanta, won the Mvp vs the Rams. Oh and threw a td vs the Ravens in down 14x2 game.

Gronk is a first balot. Edelman is not, but if Lynn Swann is a hof based on his playoff performance then so is Edelman. No doubt about it regardless of what the jealous players say that are just salty they couldnt apply his work ethic to their game. Don’t really care what the mediots think, most of them are patriot haters/ homers of their own team that have sounded off on the subject.

What a pleasure it was to watch those two. Very fortunate to not only have the Goat but also Troy Brown, Wes Welker, Randy Moss, Dion Branch, David Patten etc. A great ride and now just sitting back to see who the next man up will be.

The Welker/Edelman debate is very touchy. Welker was a robotic catching machine. Truly one of the best to ever bless the slot position. If there was a hall of fame for slot receivers he would be number 1. I really do hate the comparison though. What separates the two is Edelman evolved from the slot to a multi dimensional nightmare for teams. Edelmans range was 0 to 20+yards while Welker was 0-10 yards. Both were very good yac.

Sadly the Welker drop happened and yes it effects his place. It shouldn’t but it does. If you combine Welkers stats and Edelmans big plays I think they both get in.

 

[Ice_Ice_Brady]

Vinatieri has 4 rings (to Edelman's 3). 3 1st team All Pros to Edelman's zero. 3 Pro Bowls to Edelman's zero. Completed more field goals than anyone else in history. Scored more points than anyone else in history. Was on the 2000's All Decade team. Was on the NFL 100 Anniversary team.

So Vinatieri has an extra ring, records, and a bunch of accolades that Edelman doesn't have.

Vinatieri is also universally regarded as the best kicker of all time. Edelman isn't even the best pass catcher for the Pats in the dynasty era between Welker, Gronk and Moss.

There are 29 WRs in Canton and only 2 pure place kickers (non-QBs.)

For a place kicker, being the best of his generation, swimming in accolades and records, holding records at time of retirement, is historically the starting point for consideration. I think Vinatieri will get in, but my point is without the heroic clutch moments and Super Bowls, I don‘t think his resume is enough.

 

[Zarozzor]

I'll always like Edelman more because of his big contributions to three rings, but I have nothing against Welker. I don't even think most of the grief toward him is because of the drop in the Super Bowl, it's because he left and went to play with Manning.

He was good in the playoffs too despite two memorable drops. Just go take a look at his playoff game log from 2007-2012. He probably even wins Super Bowl 42 MVP if McDaniels hadn't taken so long to adjust the game plan.

And his regular season performance goes without saying. Excluding Brady, you could argue he was the main engine that made 4 top 20 offenses of all-time go.

1. 2007 Patriots
2. 2010 Patriots
3. 2018 Chiefs
4. 2002 Chiefs
5. 1998 Broncos
6. 1992 49ers
7. 1984 Dolphins
8. 2011 Packers
9. 2013 Broncos
10. 2003 Chiefs
11. 2011 Saints
12. 2011 Patriots
13. 2004 Colts
14. 1993 49ers
15. 1988 Bengals
16. 2012 Patriots
17. 2004 Chiefs
18. 1995 Cowboys
19. 2006 Colts
20. 1998 49ers

 

[patsfanincleveland]

Wes never won a Super Bowl. Edelman won three of them and played a big role in each victory. That’s a pretty big feather in Edelman’s cap over Welker.

In terms of skill and overall production, Welker is better. But Edelman rose to the occasion when it mattered most. And it wasn’t just those Super Bowls that he came up huge in.

"In warfare, there is but one favorable moment. The great art is in seizing it."- Napolean Bonaparte

"Outside of that, how was the play Mrs. Lincoln?"

Considering this is a fan website, with nobody looking for a contract based on stats; it's interesting to see that being argued.

 

[Pape]

The time frames Edelman and Welker played in are vastly different... people have been *****ing about the lack of weapons for Brady on New England for years... But that wasnt always the case...

Welker was playing on stacked teams with multiple weapons... Welker & Moss was a fantastic combo, who really helped each other out... who do you cover? The supporting cast on offense was clearly superior... Brady was on fire... Stallworth, Watson, Faulk, even Gaffney... then we hit the the Gronk/Hernandez era of the two tight end sets... Welker was the beneficiary of this...

Edelman played with who? oft injured Gronk? Amendola? Cooks? Dorsett? Marty? Dwayne Allen?

Two different teams, two different offenses... People making direct statistical comparisons between Welker and Edelman are being ridiculous because they were asked to do two different things...

The idea of bringing accolades to the table.. pro bowls ( fan voting? joke) All Pros, etc... doesn't make the argument you think it does... Its ****ing stupid... Ask Welker if he'd give up all those All Pros in exchange for a single Super Bowl ring, let alone 3... How about a Super Bowl MVP? I'd wager real money he would...

Each has stood out amongst their peers for a variety of reasons... Both were great... Both did what they were asked to do in their time in New England and excelled at it... This ripping one to prop up the other is BS. Its the old Manning v Brady argument with two different actors... Is it stats? Is it winning? Is it intangibles? Is it accolades? Its all three etc, taken in context of when they played and with who/what tea,s... The same guys spouting off on stats are the same guys who argued Brady over Manning in the early days... Hello??????

Both belong in the Hall of Fame.

Neither will get there.

And that what everybody should be really pissed off about and arguing against.

 

[patsfanincleveland]

The time frames Edelman and Welker played in are vastly different... people have been *****ing about the lack of weapons for Brady on New England for years... But that wasnt always the case...

Welker was playing on stacked teams with multiple weapons... Welker & Moss was a fantastic combo, who really helped each other out... who do you cover? The supporting cast on offense was clearly superior... Brady was on fire... Stallworth, Watson, Faulk, even Gaffney... then we hit the the Gronk/Hernandez era of the two tight end sets... Welker was the beneficiary of this...

Edelman played with who? oft injured Gronk? Amendola? Cooks? Dorsett? Marty? Dwayne Allen?

Two different teams, two different offenses... People making direct statistical comparisons between Welker and Edelman are being ridiculous because they were asked to do two different things...

The idea of bringing accolades to the table.. pro bowls ( fan voting? joke) All Pros, etc... doesn't make the argument you think it does... Its ****ing stupid... Ask Welker if he'd give up all those All Pros in exchange for a single Super Bowl ring, let alone 3... How about a Super Bowl MVP? I'd wager real money he would...

Each has stood out amongst their peers for a variety of reasons... Both were great... Both did what they were asked to do in their time in New England and excelled at it... This ripping one to prop up the other is BS. Its the old Manning v Brady argument with two different actors... Is it stats? Is it winning? Is it intangibles? Is it accolades? Its all three etc, taken in context of when they played and with who/what tea,s... The same guys spouting off on stats are the same guys who argued Brady over Manning in the early days... Hello??????

Both belong in the Hall of Fame.

Neither will get there.

And that what everybody should be really pissed off about and arguing against.

Welker would have been SB XLII MVP had a certain catch not been made.

 

[Pape]

Welker would have been SB XLII MVP had a certain catch not been made.

Did it happen?

No.

anything else?

 

[Wozzy]

Here’s the difference between Edelman and Welker:

Welker played in 2 Super Bowls, one divisional round game, and 3 AFC title games.

Edelman was apart of teams that went to 5 SB’s, 8 straight AFC title games and two WC games.

Edelman was on way better teams with way more opportunities.

This ^

TEAM

 

[patsfanincleveland]

Did it happen?

No.

anything else?

Like you acked about a SB MVP in your post......

Uhhhh like Welker did like play well in SB XLII. It's like it's not his fault like the Tyree catch happened.

Julio Jones should not be penalized because miserable play calling negated a Super Bowl win for him. He had an all time Super Bowl catch.

 

[Pape]

Like you acked about a SB MVP in your post......

Uhhhh like Welker did like play well in SB XLII. It's like it's not his fault like the Tyree catch happened.

Julio Jones should not be penalized because miserable play calling negated a Super Bowl win for him. He had an all time Super Bowl catch.

I didnt ask about a Super Bowl MVP. I stated that Julian Edelman has won the award.

I never said Welker didn't play well. In fact I said he should be in the Hall of Fame.

I don't see how I can be any more complimentary than that.

and julio jones??? whats he got to do with anything

 

[Ryan]

If the postseason and Super Bowl are the most important things in the NFL, then he should get in. Great postseason numbers, numerous huge catches (and a throw) in big games, and SB 53 MVP. He doesn't have the regular season numbers though, so I suspect he won't get in unfortunately.

 

[PatsFanSince74]

Edelman is in my HOF and certainly will be in the Patriots Hall, but he's, unfortunately, not going to Canton. Too much opposition among the voters, both objective and haters. He's never been named All Pro. If there were a post season HOF, he'd be at the top of the class.

Welker has more TDs and Total Yards (but identical Yards per catch) in addition to two First Team All Pro Selections, but he did play the equivalent of two more seasons. The point is fairly made that he would go in before Julian, but I don't think he has earned it. Also we can debate "the drop" endlessly. Some of us will always think he cost the Pats another SB. Others will argue differently. For whatever reason, he wasn't playing for the Patriots after that game.

 

[Rob0729]

Edelman will likely never get into the HOF. The Hall is very stats driven and Edelman doesn't have the elite stats. Also, he has a rep of being a slot receiver (although he played outside probably as much or more over his career) and slot receivers never get love from the Hall.

Being a Patriot will likely hurt several players' chances because many players sacrificed stats for winning.

 

[patsfanincleveland]

Edelman will likely never get into the HOF. The Hall is very stats driven and Edelman doesn't have the elite stats. Also, he has a rep of being a slot receiver (although he played outside probably as much or more over his career) and slot receivers never get love from the Hall.

Being a Patriot will likely hurt several players' chances because many players sacrificed stats for winning.

This sums it up.

Outside of superior play in big time situations, the genius in JE is that he was a part that made the whole great. Not everyone can do that.

(Hello, TO?)

Maybe that changes someday.