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Could TB12 win?..........


mrdm1967

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New to the forum but a long long-time Pats fan for 39 years. And I WILL emphasize, a PATRIOTS fan. My pondering question, given how Tom has won 6 SB's, could he have won as many Superbowls, based on his stats while being coached by Raymond Berry in that era?. AND. Could Steve Grogan, based on his stats, win SB's, with Belicheck?. Before any of you answer the question, I don't want emotional answers, I'd like at least some concrete reasons.

Discuss!.:evil::evil:
 
Maybe
No
 
He’s won 7!

Brady could win with anybody in any era. And Grogan could have won one with Belichick for sure...hell, should have won one without him.

The questions aren’t very concise. He asked used SBs (plural) when asking Grogan. I took that to mean whether or not Grogan was good enough to be a dynasty or mini-dynasty quarterback. I don’t think he was, though I think he was above average and certainly capable of winning with a great supporting cast and some luck.
 
It was a completely different era of football. If you dropped Grogan in from the past on a team today, he would be out of the league. I never really got why Brady is always put into scenarios trying to find some way for him to lose. I am not sure there is a single QB in NFL history that has won as many ways Brady has, yet people keep trying to come up with some possible way he could be a losing QB. Ok so you have aliens and witches lined up and Brady is by himself.....
 
It was a completely different era of football. If you dropped Grogan in from the past on a team today, he would be out of the league. I never really got why Brady is always put into scenarios trying to find some way for him to lose. I am not sure there is a single QB in NFL history that has won as many ways Brady has, yet people keep trying to come up with some possible way he could be a losing QB. Ok so you have aliens and witches lined up and Brady is by himself.....
The thing that makes judging Brady so difficult is that he has set the bar too high for even our imaginations.
 
Brady would have won multiple SBs with many different coaches in any era IMO. He is an organizational transformative player. He lifts everyone around him including the FO and coaches.

Grogan - Admittedly, I did not see him play much except for the early 80s. I think any QB from the 70s would struggle in today's game. I don't consider Bill to be the type of coach to take any QB and win with him because he has only won with Brady as his QB. So I would answer No to the Grogan/Bill question.
 
I think the eras are too different to make a decent comparison beyond the fact that any QB remotely like Brady is going to succeed in any era with the forward pass. Exactly how much is an open question.

If you take a guy like Grogan and use time travel to drop him in the 21st century, does he also get modern diet, exercise, physical therapy and time to learn modern offenses? Or are we just dropping him in blind from 1976 and seeing what happens? Brady in 1976 is the greatest offensive mind in existence in that era, but he's also "cheating" by knowing the entire trajectory of offensive systems 40+ years in the future, which is silly, and in 1976 he's not "un athletic" anymore (hell, he's maybe BETTER than most QBs as an athlete!) but do we make him eat 1976's idea of health food for a year before he plays or what?

These hypotheticals can get real silly real fast. :rofl:
 
Do we think Oscar Pistorius could win a World Series playing WR with James Cromwell as the coach?
 
Grogan had the "it" factor in spades. He would have won at least two SBs with Belichick especially during the early years and the defenses they put on the field. Grogan was a leader and put his heart and soul into every game. Of course he would have won with the Greatest coach. No doubt in my mind.
 
Grogan had the "it" factor in spades. He would have won at least two SBs with Belichick especially during the early years and the defenses they put on the field. Grogan was a leader and put his heart and soul into every game. Of course he would have won with the Greatest coach. No doubt in my mind.
Yeah not sure, much different today, I will say this, its a lot easier for a player today to go back to the time we had 180 pound linebackers running a 5.2 40 and 250 pound defensive tackles than it would be for them to go from 3 yards and a cloud of dust to what it is today. Defenses are way smarter and run way more things than they did then. Most teams ran about 3 defensive setups. Thats why the 46 worked so well, because nobody had even seen it before, now it would not even work and teams would shread it. These questions of, what Brady would have done if....are just silly. Brady went to a team that had 13 playoff wins in 40 years and went on to win 30 playoff games and 6 superbowls, he then went to a team that had zero playoff wins in 18 years, and won the superbowl. He could play anywhere with anyone. Thats it.
 
Yeah not sure, much different today, I will say this, its a lot easier for a player today to go back to the time we had 180 pound linebackers running a 5.2 40 and 250 pound defensive tackles than it would be for them to go from 3 yards and a cloud of dust to what it is today. Defenses are way smarter and run way more things than they did then. Most teams ran about 3 defensive setups. Thats why the 46 worked so well, because nobody had even seen it before, now it would not even work and teams would shread it. These questions of, what Brady would have done if....are just silly. Brady went to a team that had 13 playoff wins in 40 years and went on to win 30 playoff games and 6 superbowls, he then went to a team that had zero playoff wins in 18 years, and won the superbowl. He could play anywhere with anyone. Thats it.

All great points.
 
Grogan had the "it" factor in spades. He would have won at least two SBs with Belichick especially during the early years and the defenses they put on the field. Grogan was a leader and put his heart and soul into every game. Of course he would have won with the Greatest coach. No doubt in my mind.
Grogan was on a virtually identical career track to Brady - until the Super Bowl was stolen from him. The Space-time continuum is fluid; we can project how it could have gone otherwise but we don't have proof. Would Sullivan have behaved the same in the Hannah-Gray holdout, I say yes. The second major barrier to Grogan winning again is Stingley, who is as important to that era as Troy Brown is later. That second atrocity was committed at the very same venue against the very same team and coach. There simply is no other opponent who could ever be loathed as much in our history, forever. The consequences were devastating. Conversely, as we saw this century the credibility and pomp associated with being a Super Bowl champion, more than anything else, gives a team an annual objective and standard to pursue that is a known accomplishment. We've been there, and we want to go back.

Grogan responded to adversity primarily with personal character, and determination. He is very, very much like Tom Brady. He is likewise ultra competitive and highly emotional. He did not have the obvious talent of Plunkett, but he had exceptional mental aptitude for the position and off the charts leadership qualities.

Even through all the injuries and front office/management turmoil, Grogan put the Patriots in contention for the Super Bowl title from 1985-87, and then the third member of the Pats' Holy Trinity of modern quarterbacks took the reins in 1988, local boy Doug Flutie.

The parallels between Flutie and Brady are also striking. In his first extended NFL starting opportunity, Doug like Tom took a losing collection of talented players with significant playoff and Super Bowl experience and put them on the doorstep of glory. That coach chose the suicidal route of putting the vastly inferior number 11 losing Super Bowl starter back in with the same results we would have seen if Belichick did that in '01, and Brady would have likewise had to go win somewhere else.

So given all the details, I very easily see Grogan winning at least two or three Super Bowls under Fairbanks. I don't think Chuck leaves if Darryl isn't paralyzed.
 
Last edited:
New to the forum but a long long-time Pats fan for 39 years. And I WILL emphasize, a PATRIOTS fan. My pondering question, given how Tom has won 6 SB's, could he have won as many Superbowls, based on his stats while being coached by Raymond Berry in that era?. AND. Could Steve Grogan, based on his stats, win SB's, with Belicheck?. Before any of you answer the question, I don't want emotional answers, I'd like at least some concrete reasons.

Discuss!.:evil::evil:
First question: No.

Berry would have put Bledsoe back in, we would have been eliminated from the playoffs and Tom would have had to go win titles somewhere else.

I have to qualify this, because Tom wasn't a local hero and he's 6'4". Maybe Berry would have treated him differently. But I can't ignore reality. Maybe if people of Japanese ancestry were taller then FDR wouldn't have authorized the concentration camps?
 
New to the forum but a long long-time Pats fan for 39 years. And I WILL emphasize, a PATRIOTS fan. My pondering question, given how Tom has won 6 SB's, could he have won as many Superbowls, based on his stats while being coached by Raymond Berry in that era?. AND. Could Steve Grogan, based on his stats, win SB's, with Belicheck?. Before any of you answer the question, I don't want emotional answers, I'd like at least some concrete reasons.

Discuss!.:evil::evil:
Second question: Yes. Steve would have known he had a dependable defense.
 
Grogan was on a virtually identical career track to Brady - until the Super Bowl was stolen from him. The Space-time continuum is fluid; we can project how it could have gone otherwise but we don't have proof. Would Sullivan have behaved the same in the Hannah-Gray holdout, I say yes. The second major barrier to Grogan winning again is Stingley, who is as important to that era as Troy Brown is later. That second atrocity was committed at the very same venue against the very same team and coach. There simply is no other opponent who could ever be loathed as much in our history, forever. The consequences were devastating. Conversely, as we saw this century the credibility and pomp associated with being a Super Bowl champion, more than anything else, gives a team an annual objective and standard to pursue that is a known accomplishment. We've been there, and we want to go back.

Grogan responded to adversity primarily with personal character, and determination. He is very, very much like Tom Brady. He is likewise ultra competitive and highly emotional. He did not have the obvious talent of Plunkett, but he had exceptional mental aptitude for the position and off the charts leadership qualities.

Even through all the injuries and front office/management turmoil, Grogan put the Patriots in contention for the Super Bowl title from 1985-87, and then the third member of the Pats' Holy Trinity of modern quarterbacks took the reins in 1988, local boy Doug Flutie.

The parallels between Flutie and Brady are also striking. In his first extended NFL starting opportunity, Doug like Tom took a losing collection of talented players with significant playoff and Super Bowl experience and put them on the doorstep of glory. That coach chose the suicidal route of putting the vastly inferior number 11 losing Super Bowl starter back in with the same results we would have seen if Belichick did that in '01, and Brady would have likewise had to go win somewhere else.

So given all the details, I very easily see Grogan winning at least two or three Super Bowls under Fairbanks. I don't think Chuck leaves if Darryl isn't paralyzed.
Yeah, no...there is zero comparison to their careers. We probably do not even sniff the superbowl in 01 if Bledsoe was not pulled.
 


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