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OT: Official 2020 Tompa Bay Gronkaneers Thread

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Maybe...maybe not about Brady having a similar career path somewhere else. I believe he would have, but I don't expect to change anyone's mind over a theoretical. I wouldn't call your theory far fetched; it's a distinct possibility.

But I'll ask you, when you list out those points, is this the type of reasoning you'd use when describing another quarterback who was little heradled or heavily doubted coming into the pros but became an all-time great? That's really my issue with it...not that it's invalid and that you're wrong...but just that the way it's often presented as some outlier situation and not something that happens all the time with players turning out to be overlooked, which is why I steer back to the Scottie Pippen portrayal of Belichick.

How is Brady's situation different from other players? Other than the unique Belichick/Patriots viewpoint that exists?
  • Aaron Rodgers was passed over by almost every team in the first round in an embarassing draft day free fall. The Packers, despite having Brett Favre, still drafted him and developed him for four years. But the credit the Patriots get for developing and believing in Brady seems to get about 100X more credit than the Packers. They had faith in him and developed him, no?
  • Drew Brees was a late first round pick but was underperforming in San Diego through 2003, which is why they drafted Rivers. Brees was starting to put it together before his injury...but regardless, there is a much stronger case that his success was enhanced by Sean Payton than Brady's was enhanced by Belichick. It isn't that Brady's wasn't enhanced by Belichick; it's that there's really no reference point either way, and yet the consensus would say Brady is a product of Belichick but not Brees of Payton.
  • Russell Wilson was a third round pick, and the team had just signed Matt Flynn to a pretty big contract.
  • Joe Montana was a third round pick. Basically red shirted first year. I know from your knowledge of football history that you'd say the same about Montana as Brady and you're right. Again, my issue is that the overwhelming amount of football fans don't see it that way and it stems from an outlier take about Belichick's powers.
  • Johnny Unitas was a ninth round pick (though about 100th overall), got cut by the Steelers, worked construction, got a tryout with the Colts, made the team, was horrible, stuck with it, and became the best player of his generation. No one really attributes his success to Weeb Eubank.
  • Tony Romo and Kurt Warner were UDFAs; Warner was bagging groceries. The Rams are credited for "discovering" his talent but not for developing him in the same way the Patriots are with Brady.

With all of those situations above (except Brees), which quarterbacks would this formula not apply to?
  1. ____'s program scouted ___.
  2. ____'s program drafted ___.
  3. ____'s program identified ____'s strengths and potential in rookie training camp. They kept him around as opposed to cutting him.
  4. ____'s program developed ____, coached him and put him in a position to have a CHANCE at succeeding.

The last two points definitely props to the Patriots.

They implemented an offensive and team-building system so Tom was surrounded by talent so the team could compete for championships every year.
They consistently came to an agreement on his contract extensions.
All the teams/coaches/QBs you list deserve credit. At some level they identified the talent and maximized it.

I give bonus points to BB, Weeb, Tuna for developing the more raw talents and being patient.

Especially Charlie Armey and Vermeil for finding freaking Kurt Warner in an arena league game and 2 years later an MVP.
 
Man it still feels great. Nobody can ever say Brady couldn't do it without Belichick. Nobody can ever say he never did it as a wildcard team. The guy just keeps adding to his already GOAT legendary resume.........Honestly at this point if I were him I'd just retire. There's nothing left to prove..............Wait.......there are people saying he can't win 8? NVM. Run it back.
 
I think you are under estimating just how hard it is to elevate a team, even a talented team to the SB. The Raiders are stacked, the Chargers are stacked, the Saints and Green Bay were stacked. The Bucs have been mired in losing for almost 2 decades. They were the most penalized teams in football last year and started off this season making dumb penalties. This was a complete overhaul of the culture and make up of the team. It still amazes me how the team morphed into a SB team just as the playoffs began just like the Pats of 2018. That's Brady's effect.
Not sure what more proof people need than how Brady took Psycho AB and turned him into the guy the Pope is considering canonizing upon his death. Lmao
 
There were definitely some plays where the line got so blown up, he had no chance.

But on many plays, it was the backpedaling, dodging, and scrambling that caused the line to break down like four defenders to get into the backfield, causing a perception that every blocker got destroyed from the get go. After he made the first guy miss and stepped away, he still continued to hold the ball before the whole thing flooded. You just have to know that doesn't work. It didn't work for in 3rd grade playing on the playground either. It just made it worse.

I'll watch the video when I get a chance though and see if it meshes with what I thought I saw.
I've watched the game several times and to me those crazy throws were closer to Hail Marys that have less than a 10% chance of success. His performance was pathetic and I think he knows it.
 
I do think the one play that doesn't get talked about enough is before the 4th down field goal when he had green grass in front of him and made a tough throw into traffic instead. he likely gets in if he keeps running.
I'd cited that play. At that point in the game St Aaron had had his fill of hits from the Tampa D and choose poorly.
 
All the teams/coaches/QBs you list deserve credit. At some level they identified the talent and maximized it.

I give bonus points to BB, Weeb, Tuna for developing the more raw talents and being patient.

Especially Charlie Armey and Vermeil for finding freaking Kurt Warner in an arena league game and 2 years later an MVP.

I really do agree with your viewpoint on those situations.

And also I think we saw more prime examples in the 1980s of quarterbacks being a lot more system and coach dependent than in recent years. I'm thinking Simms/Hostetler (Parcells), Theismann/Williams/Rypien (Gibbs), and then Montana/Young (Walsh) all examples of seeing a coaching imprint on these players.

Would you agree, though, that the large majority of Patriots fans and national sports media tends to assign a very generous amount of credit to Belichick in his development of Brady, in contrast to almost zero credit when it comes to those other coach-QB relationships?
 
Brady won't win another ring.

The biggest obstacle is still Seattle. Rodgers in Dallas would be another hurdle.

Seattle has to find a way to fix that defense and running game.

Comical you say the biggest obstacle is Seattle than say they need to fix the defense which is horrible and the line is bad. Than say Rodgers in Dallas would be another hurdle like that’s even possible
 
Tristan Wirfs since Week 6:

15 games
12 pressures (0 sacks, 3 hits, 9 hurries)

Context: 15-20 pressures allowed usually leads the league among tackles for a season. Wirfs played like the best tackle in football as a 21 year old rookie & deserves more recognition.

Somehow didn’t win rookie of the year
 
Would you agree, though, that the large majority of Patriots fans and national sports media tends to assign a very generous amount of credit to Belichick in his development of Brady, in contrast to almost zero credit when it comes to those other coach-QB relationships?

I don't listen/watch any national sports media (honest) so I don't know what they are saying. In the 2000s I think NEP fans did give Bill a lot of credit for Tom but that has dissipated. Why I'm not sure. Tom's success? Pissed off at Bill? Those discussions were taking place but now they are out control.

Pertaining to the other coaches, I think thats old news. I also think society is more focused on individual achievement than team achievement.

Bill v Brady is what's breaking the internet and being talked about because it fuels argument and discussion.
 
I'd cited that play. At that point in the game St Aaron had had his fill of hits from the Tampa D and choose poorly.
Yup, I doubt Devon White lets him stroll in, he was the closest to him and he's fast. I'm pretty sure Aaron saw him and decided, nope.
 
You're now arguing the second argument, which is the talk show argument rather than the actual argument.

And, even there, your argument fails. Tampa hadn't even been in the playoffs since 2007. Tampa hadn't won a playoff game since 2002. Tampa's recent win totals were 7,5,5,9,6,2, and 4.

It's just unbelievable. Imo this ended the seemingly endless silly discussions of GOAT, BOAT, LOAT and all of the offsprings such as "if BB had Rodgers instead of Brady" BS.

New team, new system, Covid, running through the playoffs beating the 1st, 2nd and 4th seeded teams on the road and beating the AFCs 1 seed and the previous year's champion.

It's just ridiculous. Did they check the balls?
 
Yea, even with Brady nobody gave them a chance. Just looking at the NFL power rankings:

WK RANK
1 13
2 13
3 12
4 10
5 8
6 12
7 6
8 3
9 3
10 7
11 4
12 6
13 9
14 10
15 12
16 12
17 8
WC 6/16
DIV 6/8
CCG 4/4
SB 2
END 1

Yup, I doubt Devon White lets him stroll in, he was the closest to him and he's fast. I'm pretty sure Aaron saw him and decided, nope.

"They've only beaten one good team" was the phrase, along with its variants, that was being tossed around come playoff time.
 
It's just unbelievable. Imo this ended the seemingly endless silly discussions of GOAT, BOAT, LOAT and all of the offsprings such as "if BB had Rodgers instead of Brady" BS.

New team, new system, Covid, running through the playoffs beating the 1st, 2nd and 4th seeded teams on the road and beating the AFCs 1 seed and the previous year's champion.

It's just ridiculous. Did they check the balls?

Brady just took a team that had been 7-9 the year before and beat 3 MVPs in the playoffs, while being the underdog for each game, and beating a team that had gone 31-6 in their last 2 seasons (including a win in the previous Super Bowl), but we're still getting claims along the lines of "a lot of QBs could do that".

 
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