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OT: Official 2020 Tompa Bay Gronkaneers Thread

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Do me a favor, google Brady/PEDs and tell me what you find. You will see stories going back to 2017 insinuating Brady is on PEDs.

Where’s the proof you dimwit. Are you even a pats fan? Sounds more like salty haters. Again the nfl is not the same as it was in the 80s or 90s.
 
I'm confused here, @ChrisR2223

You just went through a very long explanation about how Brady is on steroids (then refused to back down), citing how his performance never declines and that he has continued to get better with age. So, which is it?

 

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Where’s the proof you dimwit. Are you even a pats fan? Sounds more like salty haters. Again the nfl is not the same as it was in the 80s or 90s.
Good heavens. I am NOT saying Brady is ON PEDs. Look at my avatar.

I am saying folks have been insinuating for years he has been taking them. See my links above.
 
This began almost 20 years ago when the media, baffled at how the Patriots were winning, began to take a really hard dive into the idea that Bill was transcendent, a coach who is so valuable that you have to consider his effect like he's a superstar player. This has really never happened in professional sports and was probably a big overstep by the general public in buying into it.

At the same time, he was always a goddamned good coach and GM. Clearly an advantage for the Patriots but difficult to quantify. Quantifyng the effect of coaches is not a fully baked idea with any type of accepted method. Until it is, the discussion about Bill's impact has always been bound for polarizing opinions and likely a crash ending. And I would argue the unique perception also was a huge impetus for the massive overblown scandals.

Bill never should have been considered "the Scottie Pippen" of the dynasty, the perfect sidekick, capable of winning a lot by himself but winning at a legendary level as the ultimate enhancer. That has always been the implied view of the sporting world. The problem is it just never worked or made sense; it was a nice attempt to respect his abilities, but it was full of contradictions and inconsistencies. No other coach would have an implied impact like that. No other coach even had the implied impact of Toni Kukoc. Coaches are coaches; players are players. Except for Bill.

Now that it's been built up for so many years, or as I've called it for the last few a deification of Belichick, it's bound to come crashing down when he can't maintain the impossible expectations and summon the powers he doesn't actually have as a coach.

Here's what I think Bill's best accomplishments have been and why he might be the best ever:
  • #1 (emphasis). Bill provided a program for 20 years with ummatched continuity. Since Bill ran the program and made the decisions, the Patriots were always fully aligned with each other. No major restructures on the coaching staff; no changes in offensive or defensive strategy every three years (with a new coordinator or coach, like most teams) resulting in a reset button where you now don't like half your roster because they don't fit The New Way.
  • Bill had a dual role as a coach and GM. While there are some drawbacks to this at times, overall no coach was better able to understand his GM and no GM better able to understand his coach. When it worked, it was a thing of beauty, and it often worked. Most teams need to hit twice; they need to hit on the player, and then they need hit on the player's value to their own system. The Patriots really only needed to hit once because the player and the player's value to them was the same thing.
  • Bill was ahead of his time as a GM. For years, no one understood player value and cap economics like Bill. It was all about cost and value rather than simply paying market. I've written a lot about how he values cornerbacks, linebackers, and up front run stoppers on defense and why that leads to less points scored (red zone dominance) and on offense how the investment in Brady saves costs on investments for receivers. Both have proven to be brilliant. I would argue he was similar to Billy Beane, even if not so systematically, and he was certainly one of the forerunners to today's market, cap conscious approach to personnel and drafting. And this is also why I think he isn't as effective as he used to be...because after 15 years, teams catch up. They hire egg heads and cap crunchers and rely less on smashmouth football guys.
Here are things that I think cause that "recoil effect" where overcrediting him is now leading to an opposite undercrediting him:
  • Bill is a great coach, for sure, with gameplans, preparation, etc. But let's put things in perspective...even the best coaches are a lot closer to .500 than to 1.000 on their playcalls and strategic decisions. There are a lot of very smart people on both sidelines, and football is still very much an imperfect game that rarely has perfect execution. Maybe Bill is the most brilliant coach, but it should be looked at like he was the best hitter in baseball with a .325 batting average while maybe the next guy is at .319. The exaggerated estimates of his value there seems to be like he's a .500 hitter and the rest of the league is .250. That's bound to get this recoil that we're seeing now in the media.
  • Bill did not create Brady or any players or enhance them through coaching beyond what any NFL coach does. Good coaches work with players to maximize their potential. Bill certainly did a good job of putting together teams that were complementary of each other and finding players who fit in well. But any coach is going to surround his quarterback with players who fit in well to his strengths, and finding players who fit has always been the very first concern, dating back to the beginning of football.
  • Bill isn't really capabable of winning at a higher rate than his roster allows for, or perhaps only to a small extent. Sports are all about players; coaches don't play. Small edges, usually cut into by another team's small edges, just aren't enough. That doesn't diminish his accomplishments at all; it's just reality. All teams prepare and break down film; all teams practice situational football. Stonewalling the media is a style and not an actual advantage, like a bunch of other eccentricities that are thought to somehow impact the scoreboard but do not.

It's both. Players are the ones on the field but how many times do we see great players fail because of bad coaching? Does aaron rodgers win more if he has a better coach?

I think Bill has been able to identify what players do well and put them in a position to win. I think it's abit disingenuous to say he is no better than any other coach. I am not sure many other coaches could've gotten this trash roster with no receivers and nla QB who couldn't throw to 7-9

Guys like Kyle can noy, chung with the eagles or jamie collins are examples of guys who really weren't doing anything on their teams but became great players here because Bill recognized what they do well and don't and put them in a position to win.

We marveled at the game plans bill put together to neutralize the 00 rams and the Manning colts, we marveled in 2015 how Butler was coached to look for that pass from wilson or how the "running the hills" gave the Patriots the stamina to outlast the falcons in 2016.

Now for some reason all that is being thrown out by some posters.

Now if we want to talk about Bill the GM. That is another story
 
No way in hell Brady is going to complete 2 years at Tampa. Odds are at 43 years old he won't finish this season.

Hey man - how are things these days?
 
From 2017:

From 2018:

Salty haters. Asked the same about brees as well. Also his numbers have always stayed the same. There hasn’t been a sharp increase. The game is more about offense these days. If this was the early 2000s his numbers would be different.
 
I think Bill has been able to identify what players do well and put them in a position to win. I think it's abit disingenuous to say he is no better than any other coach. I am not sure many other coaches could've gotten this trash roster with no receivers and nla QB who couldn't throw to 7-9

So you didn't read my post, then? Okay. But...I'll bite. What was the Vegas handicapper over/under on the Patriots win total this season?
 
Salty haters. Asked the same about brees as well. Also his numbers have always stayed the same. There hasn’t been a sharp increase. The game is more about offense these days. If this was the early 2000s his numbers would be different.
I think we have been debating past each other. I thought you were saying that no one was saying Brady was on PEDs. That is what I was arguing. I mean the haters hate. I do not believe he is on PEDs. Never have for the reasons you just stated. I also think he is a one of a kind athlete who has been defying what is reasonable and expected his entire career.
 
Salty haters. Asked the same about brees as well. Also his numbers have always stayed the same. There hasn’t been a sharp increase. The game is more about offense these days. If this was the early 2000s his numbers would be different.

The game today is more catered towards passing and protecting the QBs. Also I suspect nutrition and training is much better today than it was years ago. It's why I think we see some QBs brady. Brees, rodgers play well into older ages.
 
Good heavens. I am NOT saying Brady is ON PEDs. Look at my avatar.

I am saying folks have been insinuating for years he has been taking them. See my links above.

You have people say that because they hate the guy. Let’s see what Rodgers does when he gets to that age. 40 and beyond. Brees has played well at 40 and 41. He played through injury this season and had solid numbers.
 
Bill did not create Brady or any players or enhance them through coaching beyond what any NFL coach does. Good coaches work with players to maximize their potential. Bill certainly did a good job of putting together teams that were complementary of each other and finding players who fit in well. But any coach is going to surround his quarterback with players who fit in well to his strengths, and finding players who fit has always been the very first concern, dating back to the beginning of football.
No you but I think there is a little bit of cancel-culture going on pertaining to Bill not receiving proper credit for Tom being an NEP.
  1. Bill's program scouted Tom. Lloyd Carr said the NEP were the only team that did any real diligence on him.
  2. Bill's program drafted Tom. I know. It was the 6th round. But he still did.
  3. Bill's program identified his strengths and potential in 2000 TC. They kept him around as opposed to cutting him.
  4. They developed him, coached him and put him in a position to have a CHANCE at succeeding.
  5. They implemented an offensive and team-building system so Tom was surrounded by talent so the team could compete for championships every year.
  6. The consistently came to an agreement on his contract extensions. We can thank Kraft for that as well.
Now, I say all these things about Bill and his program, but it was Tom who had the untapped potential, the talent, the motivation, the production and agreed to the team-friendly deals. If he didn't we aren't having this conversation.

I truly believe if Tom went to some ****bag franchise, he would not have developed nor been as successful as he was a NEP.

He might have had the same career as Steve Young or maybe Brees. He'd get there but the road would be a bit more bumpy but the cream would have risen to the top.
 
Buddy, the guy is 43 and just won the SB and was MVP, tossing 50 Tds. That is evidence enough for folks to suspect PEDs.
Yes it is.
The last several years Tom has been focused on building his personal TB12 brand.
Were PEDs involved it would come out as always and would absolutely destroy his post football career brand.
He is not a stupid person.
 
It's both. Players are the ones on the field but how many times do we see great players fail because of bad coaching? Does aaron rodgers win more if he has a better coach?
Aaron Rodgers might have won this past AFCCG if he hadn't thrown a killer pick and missed multiple opportunities in the red zone. And those weren't all about coaching.
 
Aaron Rodgers might have won this past AFCCG if he hadn't thrown a killer pick and missed multiple opportunities in the red zone. And those weren't all about coaching.

I do think the one play that doesn't get talked about enough is before the 4th down field goal when he had green grass in front of him and made a tough throw into traffic instead. he likely gets in if he keeps running.
 
No you but I think there is a little bit of cancel-culture going on pertaining to Bill not receiving proper credit for Tom being an NEP.
  1. Bill's program scouted Tom. Lloyd Carr said the NEP were the only team that did any real diligence on him.
  2. Bill's program drafted Tom. I know. It was the 6th round. But he still did.
  3. Bill's program identified his strengths and potential in 2000 TC. They kept him around as opposed to cutting him.
  4. They developed him, coached him and put him in a position to have a CHANCE at succeeding.
  5. They implemented an offensive and team-building system so Tom was surrounded by talent so the team could compete for championships every year.
  6. The consistently came to an agreement on his contract extensions. We can thank Kraft for that as well.
Now, I say all these things about Bill and his program, but it was Tom who had the untapped potential, the talent, the motivation, the production and agreed to the team-friendly deals. If he didn't we aren't having this conversation.

I truly believe if Tom went to some ****bag franchise, he would not have developed nor been as successful if he hasn't been a NEP.

He might have had the same career as Steve Young. He'd get there but the road would be a bit more bumpy.

Maybe...maybe not about Brady having a similar career path somewhere else. I believe he would have, but I don't expect to change anyone's mind over a theoretical. I wouldn't call your theory far fetched; it's a distinct possibility.

But I'll ask you, when you list out those points, is this the type of reasoning you'd use when describing another quarterback who was little heradled or heavily doubted coming into the pros but became an all-time great? That's really my issue with it...not that it's invalid and that you're wrong...but just that the way it's often presented as some outlier situation and not something that happens all the time with players turning out to be overlooked, which is why I steer back to the Scottie Pippen portrayal of Belichick.

How is Brady's situation different from other players? Other than the unique Belichick/Patriots viewpoint that exists?
  • Aaron Rodgers was passed over by almost every team in the first round in an embarassing draft day free fall. The Packers, despite having Brett Favre, still drafted him and developed him for four years. But the credit the Patriots get for developing and believing in Brady seems to get about 100X more credit than the Packers. They had faith in him and developed him, no?
  • Drew Brees was a late first round pick but was underperforming in San Diego through 2003, which is why they drafted Rivers. Brees was starting to put it together before his injury...but regardless, there is a much stronger case that his success was enhanced by Sean Payton than Brady's was enhanced by Belichick. It isn't that Brady's wasn't enhanced by Belichick; it's that there's really no reference point either way, and yet the consensus would say Brady is a product of Belichick but not Brees of Payton.
  • Russell Wilson was a third round pick, and the team had just signed Matt Flynn to a pretty big contract.
  • Joe Montana was a third round pick. Basically red shirted first year. I know from your knowledge of football history that you'd say the same about Montana as Brady and you're right. Again, my issue is that the overwhelming amount of football fans don't see it that way and it stems from an outlier take about Belichick's powers.
  • Johnny Unitas was a ninth round pick (though about 100th overall), got cut by the Steelers, worked construction, got a tryout with the Colts, made the team, was horrible, stuck with it, and became the best player of his generation. No one really attributes his success to Weeb Eubank.
  • Tony Romo and Kurt Warner were UDFAs; Warner was bagging groceries. The Rams are credited for "discovering" his talent but not for developing him in the same way the Patriots are with Brady.

Which quarterbacks would this formula not apply to?
  1. ____'s program scouted ___.
  2. ____'s program drafted ___.
  3. ____'s program identified ____'s strengths and potential in rookie training camp. They kept him around as opposed to cutting him.
  4. ____'s program developed ____, coached him and put him in a position to have a CHANCE at succeeding.

The last two points definitely props to the Patriots.

They implemented an offensive and team-building system so Tom was surrounded by talent so the team could compete for championships every year.
They consistently came to an agreement on his contract extensions.
 
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Yes it is.
The last several years Tom has been focused on building his personal TB12 brand.
Were PEDs involved it would come out as always and would absolutely destroy his post football career brand.
He is not a stupid person.

It is amazing to think that if Tom Brady were caught in the exact same situation as Peyton Manning in 2015, it would be the biggest sports scandal in US sports history if not world sports history. And yet, there was Peyton Manning in February 2016 riding off into the sunset with an adoring media wishing him the best of luck and espousing his great character traits and integrity.
 
It is amazing to think that if Tom Brady were caught in the exact same situation as Peyton Manning in 2015, it would be the biggest sports scandal in US sports history if not world sports history. And yet, there was Peyton Manning in February 2016 riding off into the sunset with an adoring media wishing him the best of luck and espousing his great character traits and integrity.

Don't forget, his wife took HGH not Manning!
 
One thing BA gets credit for, in my book, is keeping that team together and inspired.

Team had many talented players already with a few stars in Evans, Godwin, David, etc. Then they bring in super stars like Gronk, Fournette and throw AB into the mix.

It couldn't have been easy to maintain harmony in a locker room with strong personalities like JPP, Suh, Barrett, AB, Fournette, etc. BA kept everyone chill throughout. That's pretty amazing.

Leadership comes in all kinds of forms and styles
 
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