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OT: Official 2020 Tompa Bay Gronkaneers Thread

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Without any proof. Playing at 40 and beyond is nothing new. We have seen the likes of warren moon do it. He’s also benefits from having a running game and good protection. Gets rid of the ball quickly. Never had any major injuries in terms of his arm.
Playing to the level Brady has past age 40 is unprecedented. Moon never started 16 games once he turned 40. He was a back up his last 2 seasons at ages 42/43 and only played in a couple of games those years. Brady won league MVP at age 40. He has won 2 SBs at ages 41 and 43 and was SB MVP at age 43 throwing 50 Tds (regular and post-season combined.) That is evidence enough to say he is on something. It has been talked about for the last several years.
 
I think you are under estimating just how hard it is to elevate a team, even a talented team to the SB. The Raiders are stacked, the Chargers are stacked, the Saints and Green Bay were stacked. The Bucs have been mired in losing for almost 2 decades. They were the most penalized teams in football last year and started off this season making dumb penalties. This was a complete overhaul of the culture and make up of the team. It still amazes me how the team morphed into a SB team just as the playoffs began just like the Pats of 2018. That's Brady's effect.
He's also fallen to the point where his argument is nothing more than "But it's a 53 man roster, and you play 11 guys at a time, so it wasn't really about Brady.". How he doesn't see the silliness of his position is a question for the ages.
 
He's also fallen to the point where his argument is nothing more than "But it's a 53 man roster, and you play 11 guys at a time, so it wasn't really about Brady.". How he doesn't see the silliness of his position is a question for the ages.
Bedard was saying the same thing on Tuesday. It was bizarre. He felt many QBs could have done what Brady did. It was absurd and he was called out all afternoon by Felger and the callers.
 
Hopefully, all the people saying the Bucs were a loaded superteam were able to make some good money last weekend. After all, their Superbowl odds were +5000 before Brady joined, equating to a ~2% win probability (became +1200 after Brady signed). Those initial odds were worse than the Falcons (+3300), Bears (+3300), Browns (+3300), Cowboys (+1800), Chargers (+4000), Vikings (+2000), Eagles (+1800) and a bunch of other bad teams.


Super Bowl 55 Odds Tracker
 
Playing to the level Brady has past age 40 is unprecedented. Moon never started 16 games once he turned 40. He was a back up his last 2 seasons at ages 42/43 and only played in a couple of games those years. Brady won league MVP at age 40. He has won 2 SBs at ages 41 and 43 and was SB MVP at age 43 throwing 50 Tds (regular and post-season combined.) That is evidence enough to say he is on something. It has been talked about for the last several years.

You have no clue what you talking about. Moon had a history of injuries. Also at 41 he went to the pro bowl. We are also talking about a time when the game was physical. Also the game has change with nfl offenses.
 
Bedard was saying the same thing on Tuesday. It was bizarre. He felt many QBs could have done what Brady did. It was absurd and he was called out all afternoon by Felger and the callers.
Yeah, I posted on Bedard's comments either earlier in this thread, or in another. His position was insane. It was so bad that, if he actually worked in a job field that had accountability, he'd have been fired immediately following the show.
 
You have no clue what you talking about. Moon had a history of injuries. Also at 41 he went to the pro bowl. We are also talking about a time when the game was physical. Also the game has change with nfl offenses.
LOL. Brady not having injuries is why people are suspecting PEDs. If you want, I can post all the articles suspecting him of PEDs. I mean there are a ton.
 
LOL. Brady not having injuries is why people are suspecting PEDs. If you want, I can post all the articles suspecting him of PEDs. I mean there are a ton.

You do know using PEDs causes more injuries?
 
I love how some people are acting like the Buccaneers were stacked and the huge favorite before the season and during the season. I’m pretty sure most had

Kansas City
Baltimore
New Orleans
Green Bay
Seattle

All with better shots to win the Super Bowl. I know the first three were picked by most people before the season.

A lot can change between now and the start of the season. At this point, the only teams that are real contenders are TB and GB in the NFC and KC in the AFC. LAR could make some noise as well. But this list could change a lot depending on free agency. I mean without Shaq Barrett, the Bucs are left with Vea, Suh, and JPP on the d-line. It's a great D-line but not what they had in the super bowl. Godwin can also leave via free agency and Brown could be in jail, and if that happens, the Bucs are left with Evans, Miller, and Gronk as their primary weapons. Not exactly ideal.
 
It's flawed logic.

Do people say Chuck Noll didn;t win anything without Tb12 v1 and Joe Greene?

Point is people are creating a unnecessary division.

...and who cares what Parcells did w/o BB. Irrelevant.

This began almost 20 years ago when the media, baffled at how the Patriots were winning, began to take a really hard dive into the idea that Bill was transcendent, a coach who is so valuable that you have to consider his effect like he's a superstar player. This has really never happened in professional sports and was probably a big overstep by the general public in buying into it.

At the same time, he was always a goddamned good coach and GM. Clearly an advantage for the Patriots but difficult to quantify. Quantifyng the effect of coaches is not a fully baked idea with any type of accepted method. Until it is, the discussion about Bill's impact has always been bound for polarizing opinions and likely a crash ending. And I would argue the unique perception also was a huge impetus for the massive overblown scandals.

Bill never should have been considered "the Scottie Pippen" of the dynasty, the perfect sidekick, capable of winning a lot by himself but winning at a legendary level as the ultimate enhancer. That has always been the implied view of the sporting world. The problem is it just never worked or made sense; it was a nice attempt to respect his abilities, but it was full of contradictions and inconsistencies. No other coach would have an implied impact like that. No other coach even had the implied impact of Toni Kukoc. Coaches are coaches; players are players. Except for Bill.

Now that it's been built up for so many years, or as I've called it for the last few a deification of Belichick, it's bound to come crashing down when he can't maintain the impossible expectations and summon the powers he doesn't actually have as a coach.

Here's what I think Bill's best accomplishments have been and why he might be the best ever:
  • #1 (emphasis). Bill provided a program for 20 years with ummatched continuity. Since Bill ran the program and made the decisions, the Patriots were always fully aligned with each other. No major restructures on the coaching staff; no changes in offensive or defensive strategy every three years (with a new coordinator or coach, like most teams) resulting in a reset button where you now don't like half your roster because they don't fit The New Way.
  • Bill had a dual role as a coach and GM. While there are some drawbacks to this at times, overall no coach was better able to understand his GM and no GM better able to understand his coach. When it worked, it was a thing of beauty, and it often worked. Most teams need to hit twice; they need to hit on the player, and then they need hit on the player's value to their own system. The Patriots really only needed to hit once because the player and the player's value to them was the same thing.
  • Bill was ahead of his time as a GM. For years, no one understood player value and cap economics like Bill. It was all about cost and value rather than simply paying market. I've written a lot about how he values cornerbacks, linebackers, and up front run stoppers on defense and why that leads to less points scored (red zone dominance) and on offense how the investment in Brady saves costs on investments for receivers. Both have proven to be brilliant. I would argue he was similar to Billy Beane, even if not so systematically, and he was certainly one of the forerunners to today's market, cap conscious approach to personnel and drafting. And this is also why I think he isn't as effective as he used to be...because after 15 years, teams catch up. They hire egg heads and cap crunchers and rely less on smashmouth football guys.
Here are things that I think cause that "recoil effect" where overcrediting him is now leading to an opposite undercrediting him:
  • Bill is a great coach, for sure, with gameplans, preparation, etc. But let's put things in perspective...even the best coaches are a lot closer to .500 than to 1.000 on their playcalls and strategic decisions. There are a lot of very smart people on both sidelines, and football is still very much an imperfect game that rarely has perfect execution. Maybe Bill is the most brilliant coach, but it should be looked at like he was the best hitter in baseball with a .325 batting average while maybe the next guy is at .319. The exaggerated estimates of his value there seems to be like he's a .500 hitter and the rest of the league is .250. That's bound to get this recoil that we're seeing now in the media.
  • Bill did not create Brady or any players or enhance them through coaching beyond what any NFL coach does. Good coaches work with players to maximize their potential. Bill certainly did a good job of putting together teams that were complementary of each other and finding players who fit in well. But any coach is going to surround his quarterback with players who fit in well to his strengths, and finding players who fit has always been the very first concern, dating back to the beginning of football.
  • Bill isn't really capabable of winning at a higher rate than his roster allows for, or perhaps only to a small extent. Sports are all about players; coaches don't play. Small edges, usually cut into by another team's small edges, just aren't enough. That doesn't diminish his accomplishments at all; it's just reality. All teams prepare and break down film; all teams practice situational football. Stonewalling the media is a style and not an actual advantage, like a bunch of other eccentricities that are thought to somehow impact the scoreboard but do not.
 
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I love how some people are acting like the Buccaneers were stacked and the huge favorite before the season and during the season. I’m pretty sure most had

Kansas City
Baltimore
New Orleans
Green Bay
Seattle

All with better shots to win the Super Bowl. I know the first three were picked by most people before the season.
Baltimore could have been the first team to win a SB without a QB.
 
Barrett says he's coming back (more adultness in the lingo)


At least Licht has a lot of video to use as leverage in negotiations lol
 
A lot can change between now and the start of the season. At this point, the only teams that are real contenders are TB and GB in the NFC and KC in the AFC. LAR could make some noise as well. But this list could change a lot depending on free agency. I mean without Shaq Barrett, the Bucs are left with Vea, Suh, and JPP on the d-line. It's a great D-line but not what they had in the super bowl. Godwin can also leave via free agency and Brown could be in jail, and if that happens, the Bucs are left with Evans, Miller, and Gronk as their primary weapons. Not exactly ideal.

Barrett is a product of veta. Tell me what he did when he was with the broncos. The bucs likely would let him go if he asked for crazy money. They can get someone cheap or get his replacement in the draft. Some team will overpay thinking he’s a great pass rusher. His numbers went down this year.
 
Barrett is a product of veta. Tell me what he did when he was with the broncos. The bucs likely would let him go if he asked for crazy money. They can get someone cheap or get his replacement in the draft. Some team will overpay thinking he’s a great pass rusher. His numbers went down this year.

He's a good pass rusher when others on the d line are occupying blockers, but TB is going to miss his 9.5 sacks
 
You do know using PEDs causes more injuries?
Buddy, the guy is 43 and just won the SB and was MVP, tossing 50 Tds. That is evidence enough for folks to suspect PEDs.
 
You might be right. but if there's one guy who can convince him to sign with another team, it's Robert Kraft...even if it's for 1 year.

As long as there's a championship caliber roster, sure.
 
Buddy, the guy is 43 and just won the SB and was MVP, tossing 50 Tds. That is evidence enough for folks to suspect PEDs.

50 tds? Have you looked at the team he was in? . Also the fact that the nfl is a lot different now where numbers are bloated. You’re clueless. You should have your pats fan card revoked.
 
Based on the videos of their GM, coach, and players (not Brady, Gronk), it's clear this team is new to this type of winning. Arians needs to shut up. One super bowl does not make him great and he should be humble because there are a lot of other good teams in the league. The Bucs are the best team headed into the free agency/draft period, but I can see GB, KC, and LAR as well as a few other teams make some noise next year.

They're just drinking and having a good time. There is nothing wrong with celebrating and being happy that you won a Championship and did something that many thought they couldn't do.

Its a lot easier to get inebriated and caught up in the moment down in sunny Florida vs on a freezing duck boat in Boston. How can you not be happy for them? Just the sheer genuine joy that is in all of their faces, they worked hard and they earned the right to be Champions
 
50 tds? Have you looked at the team he was in? . Also the fact that the nfl is a lot different now where numbers are bloated. You’re clueless. You should have your pats fan card revoked.
Do me a favor, google Brady/PEDs and tell me what you find. You will see stories going back to 2017 insinuating Brady is on PEDs.
 
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