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Extend Newton

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Cam has "leadership skills." He thinks up nicknames for people. Sheer genius. He talks a good game, but he rarely plays one. He offers reassurances ad nauseum that he's gonna do better.

Reflect on this: about a half a TD pass per game. It's nice that you find him so charming and all, but let's find somebody who can actually play the game.
 
You feel liberated not to be held back by a pure pocket passer?

Kinda weird. I used to feel liberated when that pure pocket passer had us top 5 every year points scored and not sitting down at 27 where we are now.

Of course I feel liberated because the way all players -- even QBs -- are becoming more athletic and due to more rule changes that favor the offense it seems like having a pure pocket passer has become a handicap to overcome when building a team.

In 2020 you can stress defenses much, much more when your QB is mobile and can also accurately throw while moving around. Brady and Big Ben might be the last of their kind. Even the Saints have jumped on that train and are putting Hill in for a couple plays to leverage those added dimensions.

I didn't mean it as a slight against Brady, but ultimately football has moved on and using a pure pocket passer just means your limiting your offense.
 
Of course I feel liberated because the way all players -- even QBs -- are becoming more athletic and due to more rule changes that favor the offense it seems like having a pure pocket passer has become a handicap to overcome when building a team.

In 2020 you can stress defenses much, much more when your QB is mobile and can also accurately throw while moving around. Brady and Big Ben might be the last of their kind. Even the Saints have jumped on that train and are putting Hill in for a couple plays to leverage those added dimensions.

I didn't mean it as a slight against Brady, but ultimately football has moved on and using a pure pocket passer just means your limiting your offense.
Ok, I get what your saying now. I don’t know if I necessarily agree though. With the way they are calling the game, lots more PI calls, I think pure pocket passers would do just fine, and in fact we are seeing the Tampa, New Orleans, and Pittsburgh offences for the most part shine. All 3 are in the top 6 points scored in the league.

Really, what you need is a good QB, whether he is the pure pocket passer or the guy who can run and pass. There’s multiple ways to get the ball down the field.
 
Hey, we're all making the best out of this season. It was an impossible position for any QB to succeed - the year Brady commits adultery.
So, finding the only prior "Star/Starting QB" on the market at bargain basement price was the obvious move. But, make no mistake, this is a 1-year rental. I fully believe if Stid was named #1 and didn't get hurt most of TC, he could have fared just as good as a 4-5 record and a 3TD/7INT ratio. I mean, it's laughable for 8 games as a NFL starting QB! Cam certainly has the professionalism and personality to get guys riled up behind him, but we have to be objective - he's not helping the team with a solid passing game. I'm not saying Stid should be the QB of the future, but he'll have 2 years as a #2 in THIS system and (hopefully) a full offseason next year, so he'd likely be the best option to ride the wave as they either draft THE GUY, or get a new FA with promise.
 
It depends. If a better option like Jimmy G is available sure go after him. If not cam newton won't be expensive and if we draft a QB will be a great mentor.

What's the other option? Go into the season with hoyer and Stidham and become the jets losing 16 games?
 
Really, what you need is a good QB, whether he is the pure pocket passer or the guy who can run and pass. There’s multiple ways to get the ball down the field.
The common denominator is you have to be a good passer if you want to be successful consistently.
 
What reads is he missing ? Where is he not throwing the ball accurate enough ? When is he too slow ? I am not trying to be an ******* here but if all those things are so obvious then it should be easy to point to a couple of plays in the last couple games.

But to me the Buffalo game seemed to be the turning point for him. He still struggled against the Bills and our ultra conservative gameplan (i.e. kicking FG on third down before half) was also not favorable. But he looked a lot more decisive and since then there has been no blown timeouts, delay of game penalties and barely any free rushers (if it wasn't by design e.g. on a screen). Similarly, his footwork looks like it has rebounded since that awful stretch against the Broncos and 49ers.

In fact, I can only remember one pass that looked ugly against Baltimore and that was the third down to a wide open Jakobi in the endzone. I haven't rewatched it but according to Lazar the ball was actually tipped:



Apart from that he looked decisive, had a quick release, set his protections/changed plays quicker and his throws were accurate despite the elements.

What it boils down to is I feel much better about him and his trendline now than I did a 3 weeks ago. And most of this is only because the team finally is back in a practice rhythm.

So reading about all those issues that have not really shown up in meaningful ways since the Broncos/49ers game is confusing.


I said this before. Cam seems to scan the field like he is going through his reads, but until a couple of dump offs in the last game, he always throws to his first read like @Lagaffe_07 pointed out. It was great when he dumped the ball off to Johnson in the last game - I smiled - Newton moved onto his outlet. He throws to the RB, but in those circumstances, it appears that is his first read.

There are a lot of All22 videos out there, like @Lagaffe_07 says, that show guys wide open. Brady misses wide open guys too, just not nearly as commonly.

Footwork looking good? I missed that. Footwork looked better? Yes, but it could not have gotten worse. Decisive throws? Yes I agree, but again he is decisive because he is quickly throwing to his first read. Not a bad thing, but not a reason to celebrate either.

I agree that he is trending in the right direction. Cam tried to put some "touch" on some of his short dump off passes, and he knows the first read now. Just like when he scans the field and sees nothing, I am not convinced that when Cam changes the play at the line of scrimmage he is reading the situation correctly. There are too many "free runners" for Cam to be in control of what is happening. We have one of the best Olines in the league, and good RBs at picking up the 5th rusher, and Cam's pocket presence looks very confused too often.

Saying all that, I agree that Cam is improving when we need it. I am guessing that is why BB bemoaned the lack of practice, because without a pre-season, Cam desperately needs practice.

Maybe a better question would be if you had a choice between Gardner Minshew, Ryan Fitzpatrick and Cam, who would you pick? BB would not let Fitzpatrick be a gunslinger. Minshew is scrappy, does not have the strongest arm, but might fit our offense well on a temporary basis. I love Cam's attitude and leadership, I even like his hats ! But I think both Minshew and Fitz would be better in the NE offense, and we would be a better team in 2020 with Minshew or Fitzmagic (as examples).
 
There are a lot of All22 videos out there, like @Lagaffe_07 says, that show guys wide open. Brady misses wide open guys too, just not nearly as commonly

I don't see anything that bozo is writing as he is on my ignore list.

That being said an open player doesn't mean a missed read. We have been through this for years even with Brady, there is a method to how QBs are going through their progressions.

There are players who are just running clean-out routes who might get open but the QB is never going to look at them. Similarly, someone might get open because of a blown coverage or a defender slipping but it might be at a time where the QB is looking somewhere else. Other times players might get open in the right time-window but pressure in the pocket/linemen screwing up makes it impossible to throw that ball.

Those are not mistakes or bad reads. I don't think it can be stressed enough that an open player is meaningless without looking at the context of that play.

It was great when he dumped the ball off to Johnson in the last game - I smiled - Newton moved onto his outlet. He throws to the RB, but in those circumstances, it appears that is his first read.

Exactly my point. He is making strides in trusting the called concepts and making the right reads. I have been pointing to this play to Johnson for a few days now as great news. He would have not made that play a month ago.

Footwork looking good? I missed that. Footwork looked better? Yes, but it could not have gotten worse. Decisive throws? Yes I agree, but again he is decisive because he is quickly throwing to his first read. Not a bad thing, but not a reason to celebrate either.

In the end trending in the right direction is the only thing that matters. His footwork looked a lot better in the last two weeks than at any point this season. The only relevant thing is where it will be in another two weeks. Will it continue or will he regress ?

Maybe a better question would be if you had a choice between Gardner Minshew, Ryan Fitzpatrick and Cam, who would you pick?

Given the offense we have I wouldn't take any of them over Cam. I don't think there is any realistic name who would be significantly better given the same circumstances (late June signup, limited preseason, 2 weeks of COVID, 3 practices in the entirety of October).

I said it before and I stand by it.. I'd take Cam over Brady with the 2020 offense. Even with the two COVID cluster**** games (Broncos, SF) we are still substantially more successful and efficient in the redzone this year with less "talent" than we have been last year with Brady. And that's solely because of the added dimension someone like Cam brings to the table.
 
I think we all need to get used to the fact that Newton will be our QB the next 2-3 years while we search for the next QB. It is horrible to think about but it is reality because this is where Bill has left us post-Brady.
 
I think we all need to get used to the fact that Newton will be our QB the next 2-3 years while we search for the next QB. It is horrible to think about but it is reality because this is where Bill has left us post-Brady.
I hope not
 
That being said an open player doesn't mean a missed read.

True, but that does not explain all of the situations. When there are two guys running patterns on the left, and Izzo leaking out to the right, Izzo is the relief outlet, not a decoy. Cam looks too long to the left and never looks to the right. You can see that Izzo is wide open for a 30 or 40 yard run because the opposing defense quickly follows Cam's eyes and everyone in coverage shifts left. The reason the whole defense shifts to the left is because they doubt Cam will go through his reads and dump off to his check down - they were right. Hopefully Cam can keep learning and come back to his third read, the dump off, in upcoming games.
I said it before and I stand by it.. I'd take Cam over Brady with the 2020 offense.

I think there is a lot of unnecessary negativity on this site, so I will never argue with excessive positivity
 
Cam has "leadership skills." He thinks up nicknames for people. Sheer genius. He talks a good game, but he rarely plays one. He offers reassurances ad nauseum that he's gonna do better.

Reflect on this: about a half a TD pass per game. It's nice that you find him so charming and all, but let's find somebody who can actually play the game.
Who either on the roster or available right now did you have in mind?
 
Just wanted to throw this in here for the heck of it. Here are the last 15 Super Bowl winning QBs and the rounds they were drafted in. About half drafted outside the 1st round. Johnson, Dilfer, and Favre [plus PManning and DBrees] were the only ones who didn't win with their 1st teams (not including the EMan draft situation). (9th rounder) Johnson was the only "big time free agent" signed to a new team - Dilfer was a backup to Tony Banks (2nd rnd) and started halfway through the season. The Mannings (talk about ridiculous genes) and Elway were the only top pick. I don't even know who the last big time splash free agent to win a SB was (although I guess free agency as we know it started in '93). I have no point - just interesting to me (I guess you could argue working on Stidham would make more sense). My hope is that Cam could be like the former mega-reject (not even claimed off waivers) former Heisman/top pick Plunkett who played decently enough with the Raiders... Otherwise, don't waste money on big time free agents (from another team unless you're a defensive juggernaut).

[Edit: PManning with Broncos was a FA per Doctor DDS.]
[Edit: DBrees was a FA pickup and originally from SD]

Round picked (Years of Experience)
Mahomes 1st (3yr)
Brady 6th (2yr)
Foles 3rd (6yr)
PManning 1st (9yr)
Wilson 3rd (2yr)
Flacco 1st (5yr)
EManning 1st (4yr)
Rodgers 1st (6yr)
Brees 2nd (9yr)
Rothlisberger 1st (2yr)
BJohnson 9th (9yr)
Dilfer 1st (7yr)
Warner Undrafted (2yr)
Elway 1st (15yr)
Favre 2nd (6yr)
 
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True, but that does not explain all of the situations. When there are two guys running patterns on the left, and Izzo leaking out to the right, Izzo is the relief outlet, not a decoy. Cam looks too long to the left and never looks to the right. You can see that Izzo is wide open for a 30 or 40 yard run because the opposing defense quickly follows Cam's eyes and everyone in coverage shifts left. The reason the whole defense shifts to the left is because they doubt Cam will go through his reads and dump off to his check down - they were right. Hopefully Cam can keep learning and come back to his third read, the dump off, in upcoming games.

Of course not. I said someone open doesn't imply missed read and, not that there were no missed reads even if people were open.

There have been enough shots of Cam early in the season missing the relief outlet. Hell Asiasi was available a couple times in the first set of games. I am sure there will be more through the season.

But to me this is all about trends. In two weeks I will not talk anymore how much better Cam looked against the Bills, Jets and Ravens because by then we will have moved on and the expectations will be higher. I also think people make the mistake of assuming the growth of a player is something linear when in reality it has most probably multiple points where bigger jumps are being made because multiple interwoven aspects start to click.

Right now my assumption/hope is that he about to make one of those jumps given how different he looked the last 2 weeks. We will see soon.

Finally, I also don't think there is anything inherently bad about simplifying reads for a QB. Hell, JimmyG was in his third year when he started against Arizona and Miami in 2016 and even then he was only getting half field reads. Those are just tools in the toolbox of a OC. The more continuity and reps you have the more complex your offense can get.
 
Of course not. I said someone open doesn't imply missed read and, not that there were no missed reads even if people were open.

There have been enough shots of Cam early in the season missing the relief outlet. Hell Asiasi was available a couple times in the first set of games. I am sure there will be more through the season.

But to me this is all about trends. In two weeks I will not talk anymore how much better Cam looked against the Bills, Jets and Ravens because by then we will have moved on and the expectations will be higher. I also think people make the mistake of assuming the growth of a player is something linear when in reality it has most probably multiple points where bigger jumps are being made because multiple interwoven aspects start to click.

Right now my assumption/hope is that he about to make one of those jumps given how different he looked the last 2 weeks. We will see soon.

Finally, I also don't think there is anything inherently bad about simplifying reads for a QB. Hell, JimmyG was in his third year when he started against Arizona and Miami in 2016 and even then he was only getting half field reads. Those are just tools in the toolbox of a OC. The more continuity and reps you have the more complex your offense can get.
The offense was also simplified a lot for Matt Cassel. He did all right.
 
I don't see anything that bozo is writing as he is on my ignore list.

That being said an open player doesn't mean a missed read. We have been through this for years even with Brady, there is a method to how QBs are going through their progressions.

There are players who are just running clean-out routes who might get open but the QB is never going to look at them. Similarly, someone might get open because of a blown coverage or a defender slipping but it might be at a time where the QB is looking somewhere else. Other times players might get open in the right time-window but pressure in the pocket/linemen screwing up makes it impossible to throw that ball.

Those are not mistakes or bad reads. I don't think it can be stressed enough that an open player is meaningless without looking at the context of that play.



Exactly my point. He is making strides in trusting the called concepts and making the right reads. I have been pointing to this play to Johnson for a few days now as great news. He would have not made that play a month ago.



In the end trending in the right direction is the only thing that matters. His footwork looked a lot better in the last two weeks than at any point this season. The only relevant thing is where it will be in another two weeks. Will it continue or will he regress ?



Given the offense we have I wouldn't take any of them over Cam. I don't think there is any realistic name who would be significantly better given the same circumstances (late June signup, limited preseason, 2 weeks of COVID, 3 practices in the entirety of October).

I said it before and I stand by it.. I'd take Cam over Brady with the 2020 offense. Even with the two COVID cluster**** games (Broncos, SF) we are still substantially more successful and efficient in the redzone this year with less "talent" than we have been last year with Brady. And that's solely because of the added dimension someone like Cam brings to the table.
I agree with you. I wish we could stop talking about Brady. In retrospect it seems Brady tapped out after the Eagles Super Bowl and became more Brady centric than Patriots. We had to move on from him sometime and personally the time was right.
 
You feel liberated not to be held back by a pure pocket passer?

Kinda weird. I used to feel liberated when that pure pocket passer had us top 5 every year points scored and not sitting down at 27 where we are now.
I don't want your pocket passer back. He left the Pats.
 
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