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For the "Brady made Belichick" crowd


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Brady made Belichick better. Belichick made Brady better. Both men benefitted from each other. Nothing whatsoever wrong with that.

Once the Patriots started being successful under BB, he went 14-6 when Brady wasn't the QB. That's a .700 winning percentage. That's not as good as Brady's 219-64 (.774) regular season winning percentage, but it's still pretty damned good.
 
20 years later, remembering Bill Belichick’s grueling first season with Patriots

I originally typed "morons" instead of "crowd" but changed it, to appease the "that's uncalled for" snowflakes here. This is a great article by Howe, with honest insights from players, coaches and front office staff who don't have an ax to grind about Belichick and who recognize his brilliance, because they saw it firsthand. There is no doubt that Brady brought Belichick's program to a level that would not have been possible without him but the larger point remains....IT'S THE SYSTEM, STUPID(S).

I have read many times here that BB didn't start winning here until Brady took the field, using the team's 5-11 record during his first season as head coach as evidence that Brady was the real driving force behind the dynasty. That argument has been, and always will be, complete horsesh*t spewed by those whose every post is colored by an irrational distain for Belichick and/or the ridiculous notion that labeling the Belichick as the key to the dynasty is intended to belittle Brady and downplay his greatness (leading to the aggressive and largely unnecessary wagon circling around Tommy).
Here are a couple of very important realities about that 5-11 season (from the article):

Belichick had hurdles to overcome. He inherited a roster that was $10.5 million over the salary cap with just 42 players under contract. So they had to release some fan favorites, including tight end Ben Coates, and restructure other contracts to push cap hits into future seasons. The Patriots initially cut the roster to 39 players before the draft and free agency and then signed nearly 30 undrafted rookie free agents to fill out the roster on a budget. There was a firm plan in place to remain financially responsible for at least a couple years to eventually escape from their cap nightmare.


The Patriots lost their first four games and were 2-8 in mid-November. Combined with their 2-6 finish in 1999, they had won four times over a 16-game stretch. But in 2000, seven of their first eight losses were one-possession games. (Of their 11 losses in 2000, only two came against teams with losing records, so the Patriots also had a fierce schedule.)

They were largely irritated by the losing, but the team also recognized something bigger was at stake.


Finally, I love this:

The Patriots won three of their final six games. Even though they weren’t ever in the playoff race, they felt vindicated for all the work they invested in the turnaround. There was even a rallying call during a stretch when the Patriots only carried 51 players on the active roster, partly due to personnel decisions as well as salary cup struggles.

Pioli: There was a point in time, I remember Bill and I having a conversation, we felt there was something symbolic when we dropped down to 51 players. What Bill was telling the players was, “Listen, we want people who are going to be here to want to be here, and who want to do things to win the way we want to win. If those people don’t want to be here, that doesn’t mean they’re bad people or bad players. That’s just not what we’re looking for. That doesn’t mean that we’re right. It’s just the way we’re going to do it.” So when we had 51 players, people were like, “Why don’t they have 53 players on their roster?” Part of the narrative internally was we don’t know of 53 people right now who want to be Patriots.

That is some beautiful Gene Hackman "My team is on the court" sh*t right there.

Here endith the lesson.
Heck of a post!. Too bad Subscription models are stupidily annoying, but this article might be worth the investment (of time to bypass it) in "The Atlantic".
 
It is very hard to win a Super Bowl. Never mind 6.

Patriots fans are so pampered. Pat Mahomes will be lucky if he wins 3.

If Mahomes doesn't get hurt he will break all the records. He is significantly more talented than Brady
 
Heck of a post!. Too bad Subscription models are stupidily annoying, but this article might be worth the investment (of time to bypass it) in "The Atlantic".

I'm happy to pay the journalists at The Atlantic to keep doing their work. They deserve to be supported just as do the other cornerstones of democracy, such as first responders, teachers, etc. You should give it a try.
 
Buddy

You really got some stupid going on here.

First off, the "last 16%" is the only area of coaching where the "system du Belichick" was fully in place. As such, it's the only real holistic sample available.

11-5 has only missed the playoffs twice in NFL history..........let that sink in.....if it can.

5-11 in 2000? You might be too young to remember but 1999 was a complete disaster. Lombardi and Knute Rockne would have gone 2-14 with that dumpster fire. That team was so bad ($11M over the cap and no 1st round pick) it's why something like 16 FA's were brought in and some kid from Michigan was kept because it was obvious Bledsoe wasn't getting it done.

Also, the interpretation of what transpired here in Cleveland is clown show interpretation. The team was horrendous when he arrived and within a few rebuild years they made the playoffs. People forget that in the 90's free agency wasn't really a tool for quick rebuilds.

In the final year here, the Browns were a favorite to make the Super Bowl and were on the way to the playoffs when Modell made history. Nobody and nothing could have changed what took place next. Unless you live in this area, it's not possible to truly understand what a debacle that was.

Ozzie Newsome is on record saying that if the move never happened, the Browns would have won a Super Bowl. Multiple is more accurate.
Sorry this is bs. Cleveland had one bad year before he got there. The 6 years preceding Belichick they went to 3 AFC Championship Games. Any Cleveland fan would take the period immediately before Bill over his 5 years.

The rest of your post is just justification for a small sample size. Newsflash the 11-5 season followed a 16-0 season. So Bill did worse despite an easier schedule. The 3-1in 2016 was followed by Brady going 13-1 and winning a SB and beating the **** our of the 1 team they lost to in that 4 game stretch (who shut them out btw).

But be selective buddy
 
I don't know why so many seem to feel it is necessary to say the credit should go to just one (or mostly one), rather than both.

That said, I would like to offer a rebuttal to those who point out Belichick's record in Cleveland as evidence for crediting Brady for the success of the franchise over the last two decades, and minimizing the effect BB had on the dynasty.



When Belichick took over in Cleveland the roster was full of older veteran players with declining abilities and big contracts. Similar to what happened with the 2000 Pats, the 1991 Browns were a team transitioning to the future. The '91 club doubled the win total from three to six. Rookies drafted in '91 that would have impactful careers included safety Eric Turner, WR Michael Jackson and DT James Jones.

The team was 5-4 in '92, but wore down at the end to finish 7-9. While it was an improvement over the previous season, it was not as much as one would hope for. The draft was not good, particularly the use of a first round pick on RB Tommy Vardell.

In 1993 Bernie Kosar became insubordinate, far too often freelancing by changing the play calls made by the coaching staff. Kosar refused to reel it in, blatantly refusing to follow BB's decisions. Forced into a corner, Belichick cut Kosar. Vinny Testaverde was going to take over for Kosar but got hurt, and the Browns went 2-7 to end the season with a third string QB, once again finishing 7-9. In retrospect BB perhaps should have had a sit down meeting with other coaches, Kosar, maybe Kosar's agent - but the bottom line is that a coach cannot let a player constantly make play call changes like that.

With Kosar gone, lo and behold the Browns went 11-5 in 1994 with a defense that led the NFL with the fewest points allowed. Belichick defeated Parcells and the Patriots in the playoffs, before losing at Pittsburgh.

In 1995 the Browns began the season with a 3-1 record, and 1/4 of the way through the season they were considered to be a serious contender for the Super Bowl. Then word got out about the team moving to Baltimore, and the bottom fell out. The amount of distraction was unprecedented, coupled with an extremely angry rabid fanbase. The Browns lost ten of their final 12 games to finish 5-11.


Consider those factors, plus the circumstances of the 2000 season (see the link to the article in the original post) - and citing Belichick's career coaching record without Brady is a wreckless, lazy case of taking statistics out of context. Belichick's overall record without Brady is meaningless if one bothers to scratch the surface and objectively look at 1991-95 plus 2000.
 
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I don't know why so many seem to feel it is necessary to say the credit should go to just one (or mostly one), rather than both.

That said, I would like to offer a rebuttal to those who point out Belichick's record in Cleveland as evidence for crediting Brady for the success of the franchise over the last two decades, and minimizing the effect BB had on the dynasty.



When Belichick took over in Cleveland the roster was full of older veteran players with declining abilities and big contracts. Similar to what happened with the 2000 Pats, the 1991 Browns were a team transitioning to the future. The '91 club doubled the win total from three to six. Rookies drafted in '91 that would have impactful careers included safety Eric Turner, WR Michael Jackson and DT James Jones.

The team was 5-4 in '92, but wore down at the end to finish 7-9. While it was an improvement over the previous season, it was not as much as one would hope for. The draft was not good, particularly the use of a first round pick on RB Tommy Vardell.

In 1993 Bernie Kosar became insubordinate, far too often freelancing by changing the play calls made by the coaching staff. Kosar refused to reel it in, blatantly refusing to follow BB's decisions. Forced into a corner, Belichick cut Kosar. Vinny Testaverde was going to take over for Kosar but got hurt, and the Browns went 2-7 to end the season with a third string QB, once again finishing 7-9. In retrospect BB perhaps should have had a sit down meeting with other coaches, Kosar, maybe Kosar's agent - but the bottom line is that a coach cannot let a player constantly make play call changes like that.

With Kosar gone, lo and behold the Browns went 11-5 in 1994 with a defense that led the NFL with the fewest points allowed. Belichick defeated Parcells and the Patriots in the playoffs, before losing at Pittsburgh.

In 1995 the Browns began the season with a 3-1 record, and 1/4 of the way through the season they were considered to be a serious contender for the Super Bowl. Then word got out about the team moving to Baltimore, and the bottom fell out. The amount of distraction was unprecedented, coupled with an extremely angry rabid fanbase. The Browns lost ten of their final 12 games to finish 5-11.


Consider those factors, plus the circumstances of the 2000 season (see the link to the article in the original post) - and citing Belichick's career coaching record without Brady is a wreckless, lazy case of taking statistics out of context. Belichick's overall record without Brady is meaningless if one bothers to scratch the surface and objectively look at 1991-95 plus 2000.



Belichick never even reached .500 in his Patriots coaching career until after Brady took over at QB. Even the cherry picked "they were 3-3 in their last 6" line only shows the team at .500 against subpar opponents. If y'all want to say that, once Brady got things running, BB could have taken it from there, you might have an argument. But, as for who "made" who in New England, there's no debate. Brady made Belichick.

I hate phrasing it that way, because it's not fair to either person, and it's not fair to the other people (especially the offensive coaches) involved, but it's the wording used in the title.
 
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It is very hard to win a Super Bowl. Never mind 6.

Patriots fans are so pampered. Pat Mahomes will be lucky if he wins 3.
Because he does not have the greatest coach of all time to put him in the best position to win. Brady coughed up the ball that should have ended their first superbowl drive. Adam Vinatieri won a couple of Lombardis for this team. Key defensive plays, outrageous individual offensive performances by guys not named Brady, and sheer luck all propped up the 'Goat'.

You guys need to review some game film.
 
Brady DID make Belichick. Without Brady, Belichick would never have became Belichick because Belichick would have gotten fired. Sure. Belichick definitely made Brady better too. However, even as Belichick always says: Its all about the players. Both Brady and Belichick helped eachother, true. However, without Brady and his always being all in mindset, there would be no six Lombardis. Brady on the other hand had a fantastic football IQ. I think Brady could have won 1-2 superbowls elsewhere with a decent coach. Belichick? Never would have won a SB as a HC if Brady didn't become Brady. Also, Mahomes imo will win multiple superbowls. Maybe 2-4. More likely 2-3.
 
I don't know why so many seem to feel it is necessary to say the credit should go to just one (or mostly one), rather than both.
Both? I'm guessing you missed all the championship seasons. Brady was not even a factor for the first two if you ignore the famous fumble. That JAG Butler had something to do with one championship. Some guy named Bledsoe got them past the Steelers when TB12 was nursing a boo boo. Edelman -- that f*cking catch was unbelievable. And James White? For the tie, for the win.
 
Because he does not have the greatest coach of all time to put him in the best position to win. Brady coughed up the ball that should have ended their first superbowl drive. Adam Vinatieri won a couple of Lombardis for this team. Key defensive plays, outrageous individual offensive performances by guys not named Brady, and sheer luck all propped up the 'Goat'.

You guys need to review some game film.

You'll do anything to knock Brady.

Vinatieri won a Super Bowl by missing two field goals. If he'd hit them, he wouldn't have needed to hit the game winner.

Never mind that at the time that was the 2nd greatest Super Bowl performance by a QB in NFL history.

350 yards.
 
If Mahomes doesn't get hurt he will break all the records. He is significantly more talented than Brady

QB talent is reading defenses, moving around the pocket, arm strength, all of that.

Watch Brady this year and you'll figure out how wrong you are.
 
Sorry this is bs. Cleveland had one bad year before he got there. The 6 years preceding Belichick they went to 3 AFC Championship Games. Any Cleveland fan would take the period immediately before Bill over his 5 years.

The rest of your post is just justification for a small sample size. Newsflash the 11-5 season followed a 16-0 season. So Bill did worse despite an easier schedule. The 3-1in 2016 was followed by Brady going 13-1 and winning a SB and beating the **** our of the 1 team they lost to in that 4 game stretch (who shut them out btw).

But be selective buddy

11-5 with Cassel and then 10-6 with Brady the year after that. Huh.
 
Because he does not have the greatest coach of all time to put him in the best position to win. Brady coughed up the ball that should have ended their first superbowl drive. Adam Vinatieri won a couple of Lombardis for this team. Key defensive plays, outrageous individual offensive performances by guys not named Brady, and sheer luck all propped up the 'Goat'.

You guys need to review some game film.

I think you mean the Raiders game - yes that was a fumble.

I would not have voted for Brady as SB 36 MVP. My vote would have been Law and honestly it should have been a no brainer.

Brady was dominant wire to wire in just one Super Bowl game- the one they lost to Philly.
 
Both? I'm guessing you missed all the championship seasons. Brady was not even a factor for the first two if you ignore the famous fumble. That JAG Butler had something to do with one championship. Some guy named Bledsoe got them past the Steelers when TB12 was nursing a boo boo. Edelman -- that f*cking catch was unbelievable. And James White? For the tie, for the win.

This is the dumbest post on this board this month.

In the 2nd Super Bowl, Brady had the 2nd greatest performance in Super Bowl history at the time.

32 completions, 48 attempts, 354 yards, 3 TDs, 1 INT

He wasn't even a factor in that game.

Just the 2nd greatest performance in history at the time.

It was all Vinatieri. Vinatieri had 2 big missed FGs but he was much better than Brady just the same.

Oh, and against the Seahawks? What did Brady do?

37 of 50 attempts, 328 yards, 4 TDs and 2 INTs.
Against the best defense in football.

Down by 2 scores in the second half, how'd he do?

Brady, by the way, was 9 for 9 on the game winning drive. Not bad.


 
I think you mean the Raiders game - yes that was a fumble.

I would not have voted for Brady as SB 36 MVP. My vote would have been Law and honestly it should have been a no brainer.

Brady was dominant wire to wire in just one Super Bowl game- the one they lost to Philly.

You're such a hater and you couldn't be more wrong.
Carolina, Seattle, Atlanta were all performances for the ages for QBs. He was incredible in those games.
 
You're such a hater and you couldn't be more wrong.
Carolina, Seattle, Atlanta were all performances for the ages for QBs. He was incredible in those games.
In the 4th quarter sure. Before that... not exactly.

“Hater” :rofl: :thumbsup:
 
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