WR depth

[Observer]

You know, we used to suck at cornerback for a long time too... and then something happened and we started having good CBs (even the ones we drafted). Perhaps it's because we have gone out and paid for a top guy so that makes the other guys look better (Revis/Gilmore) but it seems the other ones aren't bad either - Logan Ryan, Malcolm Butler, JC Jackson, etc. come to mind. Did they change philosophies or coaching or something else? Maybe they can do something about WR too. Curious to hear knowledgeable posters thoughts on that.

 

[cstjohn17]

You know, we used to suck at cornerback for a long time too... and then something happened and we started having good CBs (even the ones we drafted). Perhaps it's because we have gone out and paid for a top guy so that makes the other guys look better (Revis/Gilmore) but it seems the other ones aren't bad either - Logan Ryan, Malcolm Butler, JC Jackson, etc. come to mind. Did they change philosophies or coaching or something else? Maybe they can do something about WR too. Curious to hear knowledgeable posters thoughts on that.

I agree good depth always start with an elite performer at the top, everything else just slots into place.

 

[skinnydog]

You know, we used to suck at cornerback for a long time too... and then something happened and we started having good CBs (even the ones we drafted). Perhaps it's because we have gone out and paid for a top guy so that makes the other guys look better (Revis/Gilmore) but it seems the other ones aren't bad either - Logan Ryan, Malcolm Butler, JC Jackson, etc. come to mind. Did they change philosophies or coaching or something else? Maybe they can do something about WR too. Curious to hear knowledgeable posters thoughts on that.

They stopped drafting 5’9” cornerbacks based on combine 3 cone times.

 

[BaconGrundleCandy]

Who needs WRs when you can establish the RUN! Seriously how tf is this clown still employed? NFL teams love these clowns for w/e reason. A week ago he hired "software" guys to help push analytics lol.

 

[Deus Irae]

You know, we used to suck at cornerback for a long time too... and then something happened and we started having good CBs (even the ones we drafted). Perhaps it's because we have gone out and paid for a top guy so that makes the other guys look better (Revis/Gilmore) but it seems the other ones aren't bad either - Logan Ryan, Malcolm Butler, JC Jackson, etc. come to mind. Did they change philosophies or coaching or something else? Maybe they can do something about WR too. Curious to hear knowledgeable posters thoughts on that.

They stopped drafting 5’9” cornerbacks based on combine 3 cone times.

They've continued pissing away high round picks on CBs. What happened was

Talib/Revis/Browner/Butler
Gilmore/McCourty/Jackson/Jones

None of whom are Patriots draft picks, and Logan Ryan.

 

[supafly]

That's not accurate. He did step up. For a stretch, he was hugely important to the team. The problem is that, for various reasons, he failed to maintain that level.

He caught both TDs in the postseason last year, so that’s certainly something worth noting. His contributions helped bring a championship.

Overall, though, his 2018 yardage total was only 290, and his most recent season was probably his best as a NEP, which is saying something about how low the bar was set.

I think he’s an effective WR4 if he has better weapons surrounding him, but that could probably be said about anyone. Either way, I think it’s time to move on from him. In my opinion, he just never seemed to develop in this offense.

 

[Observer]

They've continued pissing away high round picks on CBs. What happened was

Talib/Revis/Browner/Butler
Gilmore/McCourty/Jackson/Jones

None of whom are Patriots draft picks, and Logan Ryan.

Jackson was a UDFA so I guess technically not drafted but I still consider him part of the draft class. Regardless, your point is valid that our cornerback situation has been good due to getting high quality FAs rather than drafting which to me suggests that it is really mostly about talent (and finding it) rather than coaching it up.

Even over the years when we have said Brady doesn't have top talent to work with, he had at least two guys that were among the best in the NFL at what they do. Moss/Welker, Gronkowski/Edelman. Even Brady cannot elevate the offense single-handedly when there is just nobody to work with. We sorely needed Antonio Brown.

 

[Deus Irae]

Jackson was a UDFA so I guess technically not drafted but I still consider him part of the draft class. Regardless, your point is valid that our cornerback situation has been good due to getting high quality FAs rather than drafting which to me suggests that it is really mostly about talent (and finding it) rather than coaching it up.

Even over the years when we have said Brady doesn't have top talent to work with, he had at least two guys that were among the best in the NFL at what they do. Moss/Welker, Gronkowski/Edelman. Even Brady cannot elevate the offense single-handedly when there is just nobody to work with. We sorely needed Antonio Brown.

Yeah. You can make a fire even if you have to rub sticks together, but you can't make fire without at least having the fixins. And it was obvious that, without Edelman at a higher level of functioning, this offense just didn't have the fixins.

 

[venecol]

Time to move on from Dorsett. Let Harry and Meyers develop another year. Restructure Sanu and hope he improves. Get a new FA X receiver to replace Dorsett and credibly take the top of the field. Draft a new WR as well. Also ok with letting Sanu go.

Get a new FA TE to replace Watson. Anyone that can block well and give us 30 catches a year and 500 yards, nothing crazy. Draft a move TE to help receiving game and make 2 TE sets credible. Keep one of LaCosse or Izzo.

If Brady isn't re-signed, you're not going to find one WR or TE that will want to come here to play with Stidham. Not one. There are more consequences than saving cap space by creating a huge leadership void.

Team got turned away by several WRs and TEs this season and that was with Brady being here.

 

[Sicilian]

If Brady isn't re-signed, you're not going to find one WR or TE that will want to come here to play with Stidham. Not one. There are more consequences than saving cap space by creating a huge leadership void.

Team got turned away by several WRs and TEs this season and that was with Brady being here.

Other than Humphries (whose explanation doesn't pass the smell test, since he chose the VERY stable Marcus Mariota instead), who do we KNOW refused to sign with us due to something other than money?

 

[venecol]

Other than Humphries (whose explanation doesn't pass the smell test, since he chose the VERY stable Marcus Mariota instead), who do we KNOW refused to sign with us due to something other than money?

Players that Patriots pursued and showed interest in playing in NE but went elsewhere include Humphries, Golden Tate, Beasley, and Jared Cook.

They all considered the NEP for the organization and because of Brady. Now remove Brady, how many FA receivers/TEs do you think are going to want to catch a pass from Stidham? Probably Zero, unless Patriots over-pay, which they won't.

 

[Sicilian]

Players that Patriots pursued and showed interest in playing in NE but went elsewhere include Humphries, Golden Tate, Beasley, and Jared Cook.

They all considered the NEP for the organization and because of Brady. Now remove Brady, how many FA receivers/TEs do you think are going to want to catch a pass from Stidham? Probably Zero, unless Patriots over-pay, which they won't.

I don't doubt that Brady helps attract people, but Humphries chose to sign with a team that had Marcus Mariota. Tate chose to sign with a team that had Daniel Jones or an Eli Manning that hasn't been effective for years. And Beasley chose the BILLS with the mighty Josh Allen. Cook is the only one who chose to go to a similar quality QB. IMO, most players will go where the money is, and if it's close enough the QB becomes a tie breaker.

Now, where I think Brady leaving absolutely would hurt, is in one-year "prove it" deals. We've had pretty good success getting talented players who want to show they still have it, and are worth bigger deals down the road. You're 100% right that no one is coming here to do that with Stidham (assuming he's the guy we go with in Brady's absence, which isn't guaranteed either).

 

[BaconGrundleCandy]

99.9% of players, ESPECIALLY ones in FA are concerned & rightfully so, with getting paid. Very few will leave $ on the table to play with a QB or for a chance to win a ring. Few & far between.

 

[Clonamery]

99.9% of players, ESPECIALLY ones in FA are concerned & rightfully so, with getting paid. Very few will leave $ on the table to play with a QB or for a chance to win a ring. Few & far between.

Time is short for NFL players. 1 payday is usually it.

 

[BaconGrundleCandy]

Time is short for NFL players. 1 payday is usually it.

When you look at risk/reward, expected # of years in service etc I can absolutely see why $ is the #1 factor. Absolutely brutal sport, cutthroat business & most fans just don't appreciate what these guys go through. Not crying for them but like you said. Most get one shot at maximizing their value & have to swing for the fence.

 

[BelichickFan]

We are fine if we getting one legit WR and a full time WR coach. A really good WR with Edelman and Harry/Sanu competing for 3/4 and Meyers 5 would be fine. Too bad Bill had to have Williams and Harris instead of Metcalf and Knox but he has made this mess, now he has to get out of it.

How do we get that really good WR? Again, Bill needs to figure that out, this is his doing. I would trade #23 down, draft a WR in round two in this deep class and then use the plentiful other picks to get a TE and younger across the board.

We could get someone like Jefferson (LSU) in round two. Him, Edelman, Harry, Sanu would be fine. If we get a real WR coach. That's a sore spot for me, Bill was a nice guy helping his buddy get out head coaching job but hurt the team.

 

[Sicilian]

We are fine if we getting one legit WR and a full time WR coach. A really good WR with Edelman and Harry/Sanu competing for 3/4 and Meyers 5 would be fine. Too bad Bill had to have Williams and Harris instead of Metcalf and Knox but he has made this mess, now he has to get out of it.

How do we get that really good WR? Again, Bill needs to figure that out, this is his doing. I would trade #23 down, draft a WR in round two in this deep class and then use the plentiful other picks to get a TE and younger across the board.

We could get someone like Jefferson (LSU) in round two. Him, Edelman, Harry, Sanu would be fine. If we get a real WR coach. That's a sore spot for me, Bill was a nice guy helping his buddy get out head coaching job but hurt the team.

Seemed like Judge was doing fine as the WR coach when he had a healthy Edelman, Brown, Gordon (still engaged), and Dorsett playing as a #4.

As for Jefferson (or any other rookie), I think we've seen that it's hard to get a rookie to contribute in this offense in year one, unless you get lucky. I'm fine with Harry and Meyers being the young hopefuls fighting for roles (with maybe another UDFA or mid round guy), but if the WR corp is going to improve next year they need a veteran (or Sanu needs to do whatever it was that made BB and Brady lobby for him for three years).

 

[upstater1]

The WR group is not as bad as we think, except for the fact that the lack of a #1 guy means the rest of them can't fulfill their roles. Jules gets doubled and Harry/Sanu get disrespected. We need one stud to stretch the field, open up the middle for Edelman, and allow Meyers, Sanu and Harry to beat their guys 1-on-1.

I do agree that the Dorsett experiment is over.

The Patriots need a #1 receiver, a good pass catching tight end, and a blocking tight end.

I think we already have our #2, #3, #4, #5 WR. They're on the roster already. Add a stud WR and 2 TEs.

 

[Deus Irae]

The WR group is not as bad as we think

Yes, it is. We know this, because we watched the games.

 

[BelichickFan]

Yes, it is. We know this, because we watched the games.

Harry, Sanu, Meyers were all in their first year with the team so improvement is very possible. We clearly need another with #2, or better, potential though.