Miller is available again

[Gumby]

Wouldn't really attribute the best punter. It's a situational position. Squibs, coffins, etc. Do you want a 5.2 hang time guy that always kicks from his 20 or a 3.9 guy who nails it within (at least) the 30. Punters are last resort guys.

Well everybody else rates punters based on NET; and that doesnt take off the impact of poor coverage teams on the punter's effort.

Even if you measured gross yards on punters it has the same issues on coffin corners etc.

So I think Hang Time is an equally valid measure. Maybe needs to be done in combination the same way that TD/INT ratio and Completion % go toward a QB rating.

 

[shmessy]

Don't know about career averages; but at least this season it has been kind of very strongly intimated that BB has been telling Hanson to kick them angled in more than one game to keep them away from dangerous return men.

Angling your kicks is naturally going to get you a number of kicks that come up short. For guys who get a bunch of yards on the bounce that can be a pretty significant differential. I would have a hard time believing BB would cut a guy for a lower net; after he told him to do something that cut down on his net.


Plus I believe BB does not measure punters based on net or even gross punt yardage. I think as long as they get it at least 35 yards from scrimmage routinely before the return; he grades them on HANG TIME.

BB is all about not giving up the big play. Remember the "bend but don't break" days of our defense. If the ball is up there long enough for the coverage team to get down there it doesn't matter whether it is one or two yards shorter than somebody else. but if the hang time is a second less that return guy can make up about 10 yards and possibly break one for 6 real quick.

So all in all I think you guys looking for some new punter to come in are barking up the wrong tree.

1) Most punters are told to "angle" punts. Chris Hanson isn't a pioneer.

2) BB/Seely have been instructing their punters to do that for years.

3) Josh Miller had great results while also angling punts for BB in the past. The problem is last year, he was having physical problems with his shoulder, thus affecting his drops. Mid-year, you could just see his production fall off. Next thing you know, he's IR'ed and getting shoulder surgery. His stint with Tenn. included coming off the shelf for one game cold, 3 punts averaging 40.3 yards, 37.0 yards net. One of those punts was a "kill" inside the 20 yard line. Even after his "excellent" game (2 punts, 41.5 gross and net average with 1 punt inside the 20), Hanson is now 13 punts, 37.1 gross, 33.2 net with 2 inside the 20. Factor in that the Ghost was very comfortable with Miller as a holder last year.

Looks like the surgery was a success.

 

[unoriginal]

You'll either get flamed or ignored, so I'll say there is NO reason why your proposition can't be. The fact that teams don't do this is pretty atrocious. The league was built on such manuevers and Hall of Fame players exist for such reasons. Hell, imagine the fake possibilities. So they say: run a reverse, that's crazy! No, no! Gaps, gaps, gasp (sic).

Kicking is such an important part of football that you need to have two players on the active roster to handle those duties, because you'll really be up **** creek if you only have one and he gets injured. The Eagles lost both their punter and kicker in the same game a year or two ago, and they had to resort to their long snapper, Mike Bartrum, doing the kickoffs. It was atrocious.

So, if you have two, it then makes sense to have each specialize in one of the two kicking disciplines, and back each other up in the other. Punting and kicking are different enough to warrant that kind of focus.

In kicking, you're hitting the ball with your instep, and driving the ball with both your legs with motion across the body. Because of that cross motion, its really easy to pull the ball off target, and kickers have to practice their mechanics to be accurate.

In punting, you're hitting the ball with the outside of your foot, and your power comes from body motion forward and driving upwards with your legs. Because you're hitting the football with the outside of your foot from a position high off the ground, its really easy to completely shank a punt.

You know how baseball pitching mechanics will mess up a quarterback's throw and vice versa? (see, Chad Hutchinson and Drew Henson) Punting and kicking are different enough to expect to see a difference in performance between multitaskers and specialists.

 

[zarakotas5]

Well everybody else rates punters based on NET; and that doesnt take off the impact of poor coverage teams on the punter's effort.

Even if you measured gross yards on punters it has the same issues on coffin corners etc.

So I think Hang Time is an equally valid measure. Maybe needs to be done in combination the same way that TD/INT ratio and Completion % go toward a QB rating.

Everybody rates everybody else by something or another. The car they drive, the house they live in, etc. Similarly, basing the talent of punters based on stats is missing the point.

I'm not trying to refute you personally, as you are debating this topic from an objective and personable level. It's just that stats are crap. People relentlessless compare stats. A position such as punting, which is the least of importance to a football team (the point is to simply move them as far back as possible), is purely situational. Sometimes it has to go far. Sometime it has to go high. Sometimes it has to go sideways. If you kick from your 45, your "stats" aren't the same as kicking from your 32, etc. It has to be seen.

 

[zarakotas5]

Kicking is such an important part of football that you need to have two players on the active roster to handle those duties, because you'll really be up **** creek if you only have one and he gets injured. The Eagles lost both their punter and kicker in the same game a year or two ago, and they had to resort to their long snapper, Mike Bartrum, doing the kickoffs. It was atrocious.

So, if you have two, it then makes sense to have each specialize in one of the two kicking disciplines, and back each other up in the other. Punting and kicking are different enough to warrant that kind of focus.

In kicking, you're hitting the ball with your instep, and driving the ball with both your legs with motion across the body. Because of that cross motion, its really easy to pull the ball off target, and kickers have to practice their mechanics to be accurate.

In punting, you're hitting the ball with the outside of your foot, and your power comes from body motion forward and driving upwards with your legs. Because you're hitting the football with the outside of your foot from a position high off the ground, its really easy to completely shank a punt.

You know how baseball pitching mechanics will mess up a quarterback's throw and vice versa? (see, Chad Hutchinson and Drew Henson) Punting and kicking are different enough to expect to see a difference in performance between multitaskers and specialists.

I defer to unoriginal. He is more knowledgeable than I. I'm also a little loaded, so I may be talking out of my ****

 

[unoriginal]

so I may be talking out of my ****

Aren't we all? Unless someone here is actually Brad Seely.

 

[Real World]

Miller is a better field goal holder. I think that might sway Belichick since Miller did a great job for Vinatieri and Gostowski (before he got injured).

I was thinking about the holding aspect too. I liked Miller, and still can't understand why he was let go. He boomed em pretty good when he was healthy, and this year he seemed to be.

 

[FlyingElvis75]

Let's see, we released Miller for Baugher, then released Baugher for Hanson - now we should release Hanson for Miller?

Yes, so we can do it all over again, on and on and on, until the end of the world. Punter Merry-Go-Round = Fun!

 

[jbb9s]

At some point, I'd like the team to pick up a young punter with a big leg who doesn't get injured, sign him to a long deal at market value and just never talk about punters again.

 

[captain stone]

At some point, I'd like the team to pick up a young punter with a big leg who doesn't get injured, sign him to a long deal at market value and just never talk about punters again.

That would be sweet; it just doesn't appear to me that BB/SP value punters very highly, however. How else to explain Ken Walter and Chris Hanson?