Bring in competition at Kicker.

[DaBruinz]

Belichick thought he had a better chance at a 4th & 13 than letting Ghost try a 47 yard FG in 2007 vs the Giants.

You must be referring to the 4th and 13 from the Giant's 31 yard line. The problem is that it wouldn't have been a 47 yard FG attempt. It would have been closer to a 49-50 yard attempt than a 47 yard attempt. (10 yards for the end zone, 8 for where the ball is placed).

Did you stop to think maybe it spoke more about the confidence he had in the defense and the offense than a lack of confidence in Gostkowski?

 

[DaBruinz]

I was talking playoffs....

I answered the question in your post. You only have yourself to blame if you didn't get the answer you wanted.

Why don't you answer your own question? Or is that asking to much of you?

Hell, you can't even show me anyone who has half the number of XP play-off attempts that Gostkowski has. Yet, you want others to go traipsing about wasting their time to support or deny your constantly changing position?

 

[Angelpats]

Are you kidding me ? Nobody is allowed to critizise the godlike creature that is Brady around here for anything. It is always BBs, McDaniels or whoever else's fault when something goes wrong.

Which is best shown by how the stable geniuses here blame the kicker for missing 1 XP in a game where Brady had multiple pointless turnovers and created a bigger hole than said kicker.

The point -- which you spectacularly miss -- is not to blame Brady but highlight that people are just being selective in their blame here to the most superlative extend expecting flawlessness from some (i.e. Ghost) but find excuses for someone else (i.e. Brady).

The reality is that in most game there are more missed points and opportunities than just a missed XP.

There are always extremists to every discussion. He throws some ridiculous ints though, but would have have him than anyone else. Same with Ghost, missing more than his average but rather have him than anyone now, except maybe the guy in Baltimore.

 

[DaBruinz]

More excuses. See you after his fourth missed PAT next week.

Not excuses. Fact. I know you have trouble with them.

 

[luuked]

There are always extremists to every discussion. He throws some ridiculous ints though, but would have have him than anyone else. Same with Ghost, missing more than his average but rather have him than anyone now, except maybe the guy in Baltimore.

See I don't think anyone has a problem with a measured take like that. And I am not even saying Brady is throwing ridiculous interceptions. But reading how people blame games where the entire team ****ed up opportunity after opportunity onto the kicker just because mathematically he is the laziest choice to blame is just silly.

He has time to work through whatever it is. If he can't he will get competition next year or will be replaced.

 

[Deus Irae]

Are you kidding me ? Nobody is allowed to critizise the godlike creature that is Brady around here for anything.

People criticize Brady all the time. The problem here is that you get it wrong about 99% of the time when you do it, yet you continue on.

 

[DaBruinz]

I don't understand why everyone's opinions are mutually exclusive and have to be met with cries of derision.

I agree with the poster who said BB did not trust Gost to make a long FG in the SB in 2007. He didn't.

Please provide the quote that BB gave saying that he didn't trust Gost to make a 49-50 yard FG in the SB. You can't because he didn't. That is just a guess on your part. Trying to portray it as fact is laughable.

BB could have also had plenty of faith in a Moss/Welker/Gaffney receiving corps to get the job done. Or the defense with Seymour, Bruschi, Harrison, Samuel, et al to stop the Giants.

I agree with the posters who say that Gost has been a solid or great kicker for us for many years and we've been spoiled.
I agree with the posters who say Gost is struggling and is no longer reliable (I started saying this last year after the Miami game).
I agree with the posters who say that there isn't anyone better out there so our Adventures in Kicking are likely to continue throughout the year and we just have to hope it gets better or it doesn't cost us a game. Everyone who is claiming it's the new punter/holder - did you ever think that that was a reason we got rid of Ryan Allen and that is no longer a valid excuse?

What does cutting Allen to go with a punter who has better hang times have to do with Bailey's issues as the holder? Are you seriously implying that after 6 years, Allen's holding became an issue? Not sure how 3 games no longer makes it a valid reason. Care to actually explain that illogical thought process?

Whatever the problem is, it's frustrating to watch easy kicks get missed, which happened in several games last year, 3 out of 4 preseason games this year, and 2 out of 3 real games so far this year.

What are you considering "easy kicks"? The XP attempts? You mean the XPAs that I showed that in 2018, anyone with more than 35 attempts had at least 1 miss? Or are you talking FGs? In which most people consider any kick 45 yards or greater to be not an easy kick. Gost missed 6 kicks last year. Only 1 of them was UNDER 45 yards.. A 42 yarder in Miami. Miami. Where Gost has missed 7 of the last 23. So clearly a place he has issues with.

Those are FACTS. Not excuses. Facts. Why is it that people like yourself feel that your emotional reactions outweigh factual based analysis?

 

[Ian]

Those are FACTS. Not excuses. Facts. Why is it that people like yourself feel that your emotional reactions outweigh factual based analysis?

Let's settle down a little too. I understand this is a debate with opinions on both sides (myself included) but let's try and be a little better about some of the replies. It's football season - times are good

 

[captain stone]

Gost will be a ghost by this time next year...book it.

Truer now than when I posted this LAST week.

Did anybody else notice the winds during the Barfalo game? Our (by this time next year former) PK will have MORE misses than hits there next week.

 

[Ian]

Truer now than when I posted this LAST week.

Did anybody else notice the winds during the Barfalo game? Our (by this time next year former) PK will have MORE misses than hits there next week.

The hard part about this type of a prediction is it sort of makes you stop rooting for the guy to settle back in and have a good year, hoping to make your prediction accurate. Really hope that's not the case and that you're also O.K. with applauding the guy should he go out and have a good season.

Don't get me wrong, you and others could be right, but he's earned the currency to at least figure it out. If he doesn't, that's another story. Just try and be able to ride the other side where you're also not hoping for him to fail to be proven correct. We've been fortunate where this position has been so consistent. I sort of doubt we'll get that lucky three straight times.

 

[mgteich]

point well taken

I do think that we can root for our declining kicker for the rest of the year, and expect that he will be replaced in 2020.

The hard part about this type of a prediction is it sort of makes you stop rooting for the guy to settle back in and have a good year, hoping to make your prediction accurate. Really hope that's not the case and that you're also O.K. with applauding the guy should he go out and have a good season.

Don't get me wrong, you and others could be right, but he's earned the currency to at least figure it out. If he doesn't, that's another story. Just try and be able to ride the other side where you're also not hoping for him to fail to be proven correct.

 

[shmessy]

People criticize Brady all the time. The problem here is that you get it wrong about 99% of the time when you do it, yet you continue on.

The half untucked shirt yesterday was stupid.

.

 

[Clonamery]

The half untucked shirt yesterday was stupid.

.

To quote a famous person, “************.”

 

[Lavictoire]

Everyone keeps saying Ghost has trouble kicking in Miami as an excuse to make us feel better. Dont forget the Super Bowl will be in Miami.

 

[cupofjoe1962]

The hard part about this type of a prediction is it sort of makes you stop rooting for the guy to settle back in and have a good year, hoping to make your prediction accurate. Really hope that's not the case and that you're also O.K. with applauding the guy should he go out and have a good season.

Don't get me wrong, you and others could be right, but he's earned the currency to at least figure it out. If he doesn't, that's another story. Just try and be able to ride the other side where you're also not hoping for him to fail to be proven correct. We've been fortunate where this position has been so consistent. I sort of doubt we'll get that lucky three straight times.

I think the majority of the folks in this forum “me included” would prefer Ghost make every FG & extra point for the remainder of his career.

Unfortunately his recent struggles have some of us looking at his performance with 20/20 vision, while others are living in the past.

My biggest problem with this forum in general is the koolaid drinkers who ignore reality for
The love of the brand.

I went toe to toe with at least a dozen koolaid drinkers in this forum a couple years ago for calling Hoo-man a JAG. A career backup with 8 touchdowns in 9 seasons is nothing more than a jag. Every team needs jags, but they are what they are.

I have had season tickets in 1979, 1981, 1987-2019 so I have been with this team through great, the bad, & the ugly. I also feel that being critical of a player does not lessen my love of the Pats.

 

[Crazy Patriot Guy]

I was talking playoffs....

Are you purposely ignoring the point that has been made multiple times that he's attempted more XPs than anyone since the rule change?

Earlier you said percentages matter. Gostkowski is 31/35 in the playoffs since the rule change, or 88%.

Adam Vinatieri is 4/5 since the rule change, or 80%.

Based off percentages, Gost is more likely to make his next playoff attempt than the clutch Vinatieri.

 

[PatsDeb]

Please provide the quote that BB gave saying that he didn't trust Gost to make a 49-50 yard FG in the SB. You can't because he didn't. That is just a guess on your part. Trying to portray it as fact is laughable.

BB could have also had plenty of faith in a Moss/Welker/Gaffney receiving corps to get the job done. Or the defense with Seymour, Bruschi, Harrison, Samuel, et al to stop the Giants.



What does cutting Allen to go with a punter who has better hang times have to do with Bailey's issues as the holder? Are you seriously implying that after 6 years, Allen's holding became an issue? Not sure how 3 games no longer makes it a valid reason. Care to actually explain that illogical thought process?



What are you considering "easy kicks"? The XP attempts? You mean the XPAs that I showed that in 2018, anyone with more than 35 attempts had at least 1 miss? Or are you talking FGs? In which most people consider any kick 45 yards or greater to be not an easy kick. Gost missed 6 kicks last year. Only 1 of them was UNDER 45 yards.. A 42 yarder in Miami. Miami. Where Gost has missed 7 of the last 23. So clearly a place he has issues with.

Those are FACTS. Not excuses. Facts. Why is it that people like yourself feel that your emotional reactions outweigh factual based analysis?

As I've tried (and failed apparently) to impress upon you, you are the only one being emotional. It's a fact that BB had a chance to go for a 45-50 yard indoor FG at the end of the SB in 2007 in a must-get-points, must-win situation, but instead went for it on 4th and 13, a play without a lot of chance of success. You read into that that he trusted the O (which hadn't done much all day) or the D to get the job done. I read into that that he didn't trust the kicker. Why am I emotional and making excuses and you are not? We both have the same facts; we just make a different interpretation of them. You don't like my interpretations of the facts in general regarding the kicker, and therefore lash out with emotional and over the top arguments and name calling, which are your opinions and have no more factual basis than my opinions.

Also, free posting tip - as soon as you call "people like me" pink-hats, haters, illogical, emotional or even "people like me" (which by the way, what does that mean, except, "people who don't agree with MY opinions"?) whatever cogent arguments you might have about anything go right out the window as your language and demeanor piss "people like me" off.

At least you have finally admitted "the fact" that Gost has problems in Miami. As I've said before, if you don't have a problem with missed extra points and short-yardage FGs, that's your prerogative.

 

[Deus Irae]

I think the majority of the folks in this forum “me included” would prefer Ghost make every FG & extra point for the remainder of his career.

Unfortunately his recent struggles have some of us looking at his performance with 20/20 vision, while others are living in the past.

My biggest problem with this forum in general is the koolaid drinkers who ignore reality for
The love of the brand.

I went toe to toe with at least a dozen koolaid drinkers in this forum a couple years ago for calling Hoo-man a JAG. A career backup with 8 touchdowns in 9 seasons is nothing more than a jag. Every team needs jags, but they are what they are.

I have had season tickets in 1979, 1981, 1987-2019 so I have been with this team through great, the bad, & the ugly. I also feel that being critical of a player does not lessen my love of the Pats.

I'm not a Koolaid drinker, obviously, and I'd still point out that

• Switching from "but XPs" to "But playoffs" to "But 2007" is a way to kill any valid argument you might have.
• Ignoring the current situation (new holder who's learning on the job, backup QB who's still learning QB, nevermind holding) is a way to kill any valid argument you might have.
• Claiming you're looking at his performance with 20/20 vision, while ignoring context and the reality of the new XP distance, is not looking at his performance with 20/20 vision. It's being needlessly biased.

One of the issues here is that we, as Patriots fans, don't pay enough attention to the rest of the league. Every other team "sucks". Every other coach "sucks". Almost every other player "sucks". So, we forget how extraordinary it is to have had about 20 years with

• BB
• TB
• Scar
• 2 kickers, both of whom have been high end at their craft

In the span since the XP was moved, Gost has hit on 130 out of 147 FGAs (88.4%). Justin Tucker, widely considered to be the best kicker in the game, has hit on 145 out of 160 FGAs (90.6%). So, essentially, people are gnashing their teeth over being about a 2% less successful than the best in the game.

There is no question that Gost has struggled more than we would expect he would on XPAs. But, even there, the issue has been largely overblown around here. Again, comparing him to Tucker, Gost is 202 out of 211 (95.7%) and Tucker is 142 out of 143 (99.3). That difference is certainly noticeable, but part of that is the significantly higher number of attempts that Gost has made. It's a difference of 2 more misses on 17 more attempts, per season, which should not have people going as crazy as some of them are.

Or, to put it another way: while I don't claim the following to be in any way definitive, I note that major difference in approach we see on the national level compared to what we see on this board and hear on the local airwaves. I'll post the tweet, understanding that it was from prior to last season but also that it was still included in the article (I take that to mean that it was still valid. If it's not, people can take that up with the story's author), and leave the rest for people to read.

Five kickers since 1986 have hit at least 90% of clutch FG (last 2:00 or OT, to tie or take lead) with at least 12 attempts. Four are active: Prater, Tucker, Bryant, Gostkowski. The other is Jason Elam.

— Aaron Schatz

Top 10 kickers and punters in NFL: Justin Tucker's at the top, and here's who else made the list for 2019

 

[TommyD4207]

i'm not sure i get people who try to fight this notion...

yeah, all those people were hurt, and yeah, obviously we found a way to overcome ALL that

there's one thing we were not able to find a way to overcome...and XP miss

hence saying Ghost cost us that AFC champ game is legit (as far as you can get to saying something like that in a team game anyways)

Jamie Collins cost the Patriots 12 points. Gostkowski cost 1.

 

[DaBruinz]

As I've tried (and failed apparently) to impress upon you, you are the only one being emotional. It's a fact that BB had a chance to go for a 45-50 yard indoor FG at the end of the SB in 2007 in a must-get-points, must-win situation, but instead went for it on 4th and 13, a play without a lot of chance of success. You read into that that he trusted the O (which hadn't done much all day) or the D to get the job done. I read into that that he didn't trust the kicker. Why am I emotional and making excuses and you are not? We both have the same facts; we just make a different interpretation of them. You don't like my interpretations of the facts in general regarding the kicker, and therefore lash out with emotional and over the top arguments and name calling, which are your opinions and have no more factual basis than my opinions.

See. That's the problem. You think I'm the one being emotional when that's the furthest thing from the truth. The problem is that I haven't name called or been emotional. I've stuck to the facts. And no. They aren't my facts. They are THE facts. If I'd stated an opinion, you'd know it because I state "IMHO" or I think.

What is a fact is that it wasn't the "end of the SB in 2007". 6:49 left of the 3rd quarter and the score was 7-3 New England. That isn't a "must-get-points, must win situation" no matter how you look at it.

Super Bowl XLII - New York Giants vs. New England Patriots - February 3rd, 2008 | Pro-Football-Reference.com

What is also a fact is that you made a BS claim regarding BB's trust in Gost and tried to pass it off as being factual when it was just your unsubstantiated opinion.

Also, free posting tip - as soon as you call "people like me" pink-hats, haters, illogical, emotional or even "people like me" (which by the way, what does that mean, except, "people who don't agree with MY opinions"?) whatever cogent arguments you might have about anything go right out the window as your language and demeanor piss "people like me" off.

Here's a "free posting tip". Get your facts straight before you accuse someone of calling you something. I didn't call you a "pink hatter". The only person who mentioned "pink hat" was @Bruins29 in his response to @luuked. Luuked had written a pretty scathing response to your opinion and two other well respected posters in @QuantumMechanic and @patfanken called his post a winner. Though @patfanken didn't single you out, his response was clearly directed at people like yourself who were claiming the Patriots needed to bring in competition.

@Bruins29 Bring in competition at Kicker.

@luuked Bring in competition at Kicker.

@patfanken Bring in competition at Kicker.

When I say "a person like you", I fully explain it. In your case, you react emotionally (claiming that Gostkowski is unreliable despite what the statistics show). You can't be bothered with facts. You make claims that are clearly personal opinion and you attempt to pass them off as factual (see your claim about BB not trusting Gost). And you can't be bothered to pay attention to who actually said what to you so you insult others with your bogus claims.

My 1st response to you in this thread was post #97.
@DaBruinz Bring in competition at Kicker.

Your response is proof that what I said regarding you is accurate. You whine and complain about people taking you to task for your emotional reactions and you don't like it when they use facts..

If you get upset because someone gives their opinion that your thought process is "illogical" and they ask you to explain it, maybe instead of getting upset, you should, I don't know, think about explaining yourself better..

At least you have finally admitted "the fact" that Gost has problems in Miami. As I've said before, if you don't have a problem with missed extra points and short-yardage FGs, that's your prerogative.

Clearly you have me confused for someone else. I've been stating that Gost has issues in Miami throughout his career. From my 1st post in the thread onward.

@DaBruinz Bring in competition at Kicker.

I even posted that, since 2011, he's missed 7 FGs there. All of but 1 of them that he's missed have been 45 or more yards. So, for this to be some revelation to you only says you can't be bothered to pay attention to what is said in the thread.

Here is what you've failed to address:
- What you consider to be "easy"? XPAs or FGs over 45 yards?
- Your claim that Allen's holding was part of the issue of why he was cut.
- An actual citation that BB didn't have trust in Gostkowski.
- Your poor recollection of events. Both in regards to games the Patriots have played and in regards to who said what in this thread.