JOSH GORDON REINSTATED

[zoostation]

Yeah he pretty much did. People were talking about him being cut

You can't be serious. I'm looking around waiting for the laugh track.

 

[Bruins29]

Also, FYI Gordon's 2018 performance can be punctuated with his paltry $600K cap hit.

 

[Biffins]

Could be the best offense we’ve had since 2007..maybe even better. Hopefully a different ending...

Whoa nelly! hold your horses...........

 

[A Defiant Goose]

So What Gordon did isnt "excellent" even though all stats and historical data pretty much conclude he was...but those stats and data that prove it arn't the correct stats. And there needs to be more context.

ooookkkkk

Here is some context for you.

How many WRs have come here and put up 1000 yards or were on pace to in their FIRST year

VS

How many WR came here (for their first year) and couldnt even make the team, get the playbook, be a factor or contribute at a 1000 yard a year pace?

Also, how many WR did anything without a camp in their first year?

I dont know the answer to any of those questions because it's midnight and I don't give enough of a **** about this to Google it but I'm gonna assume your point is that I'm holding him to an unfair standard. Is that it? Am I being unreasonable? Put it this way. On a scale of 1-100 with 100 being perfect and excellent being 92-99 I would put Gordon at like an 87. Is that good enough for y'all? He wasn't spectacular. We aren't saying he sucked or can't BE excellent. He was just...good, IMO. He didn't necessarily transform the offense or make it something it already wasn't. He added another dimension and was good at his role. That's all

 

[shmessy]

No no no.

I said he wasn’t excellent. I stand by that.

Someone said who would be joining the team early in the season. I said moss was.

That is not comparing Gordon to moss. That is not holding Gordon to the standard of being as good as moss.

That is responding to the excuse with an example of someone who disproves it at lest to an extent.

Moss joined the Patriots on April 30, 2007.

Once again: Randy Moss brings excitement to training camp, but Asante Samuel may stay away

Rodney Harrison knows that when he's working out, he can count on Randy Moss lifting weights in the same room.
Now comes the next test. Can the New England Patriots new wide receiver carry that effort and togetherness with teammates over to practices and games?
"He didn't lose a step," Harrison said. "He's fast, faster and fastest. And having been in minicamp and having those practices with him, I didn't see him drop one football. Not one."

He did not "join the team early in the season". He was a member of the team, going to meetings, learning the playbook since May 1. Gordon did, in fact, join the team early in the season.

.

 

[shmessy]

There were too many 50/50 balls thrown to Gordon for my liking and relying on his physical ability to win them.

Who cares about the style????? I get it. You're more of a Dorsett - fast guy gets separation - fan. It doesn't matter if the WR gets 4 yards open or is contested. All that matters is the completion and the yardage.

Results, Biffins. Results.

.

 

[Biffins]

It wasn’t just josh Gordon. Or do you think everything else was equal and it’s 100% causation of Gordon?

Mate, they are comparing two sets of data, one for 11 games and one for 8 games......... with enough plays across both games to make them statistically relevant with a low p-value and a reliability on the variable changed. And the variable changed was Gordon.

So clearly when you are comparing large data sets, one with Gordon and one without Gordon, you can make realistic conclusion. Unless you can show that over the two data sets there was something else that changed significantly (weather, opponents, injury to someone etc etc). Till then the conclusion has merit and can stand.

We did this analysis all the time to demonstrate Gronk's dominance (Brady games or rating with and without Gronk etc).

 

[shmessy]

.......How many WR came here (for their first year) and couldnt even make the team, get the playbook, be a factor or contribute at a 1000 yard a year pace?
Also, how many WR did anything without a camp in their first year?

Andy's gonna answer "Moss" again.

And I'm gonna feel all tingly.

.

 

[Biffins]

Isn't it just important that he catches the ball?

Are you in some sort of Style Fantasy League?

.

errr........... I was responding to the question that he looked slow. Ofcourse I appreciate that he caught the contested catches and jump balls and am a fan. I am just responding that he didn't get massive separation. Every WR has a different skillset. Gordon is fantastic at what he does.

 

[shmessy]

I dont know the answer to any of those questions because it's midnight and I don't give enough of a **** about this to Google it but I'm gonna assume your point is that I'm holding him to an unfair standard. Is that it? Am I being unreasonable? Put it this way. On a scale of 1-100 with 100 being perfect and excellent being 92-99 I would put Gordon at like an 87. Is that good enough for y'all? He wasn't spectacular. We aren't saying he sucked or can't BE excellent. He was just...good, IMO. He didn't necessarily transform the offense or make it something it already wasn't. He added another dimension and was good at his role. That's all

Let's rephrase this, because I think you are honestly looking at this.

Given that this year, Gordon will have 3 weeks of training camp and almost a full year of learning the playbook and the route tree under his belt, how do you expect his performance to be in comparison to last year without all that?

.

 

[Biffins]

The top 3 WR's usually get 90% of the receptions. 2 of those 3 played with Brady last year, and Thomas will be fine as a #3 WR.

If your concern is about Brady having another familiar receiver, then we should indeed keep Dorsett. Myers is your #6, a development player for 2020.

QUOTE="BobDigital, post: 5625402, member: 32980"]The WR position is officially log jammed. I assume DT will want to start week 1 to try to hit his incentives.

Edelman, Gorden, Harry Meyers, Dorsett, Thomas. That is 6 and frankly 1 more than you need. While I hate to walk away from a player in the TB circle of trust Dorsett is cuttable. He is due 2.6M and only .5M is on the books. DT can be cut as well. I think he is only getting paid 150K for sure with the rest TBD.

While clearly Thomas has more upside there is a real question here. Do you want 3 players in the WR core that Brady has never played with? IDK if we do. IT worked out in 2007 but those were amazing players who were ready to rock the league week 1 and had been pros for a while.

Brady had never played with Moss and Welker before 2007. Don't sweat about it.

 

[Biffins]

Some thoughts:

1. When I first heard about it, I was THRILLED that that he was back this early. Later I wanted to ask, What happened between now and 4 weeks ago that got Josh reinstated. Why not on the first day of camp like we expected all spring and especially after Hill got whitewashed?

2. Getting him 3 weeks of practice before the first game is a HUGE advantage over last season. From all reports, he's in the best shape of his career, and while he never looked as explosive with us as he did with Cleveland, we might see more of that this time around because his familiarity with the playbook will allow him to play faster this time around.

3. I'm no longer worried about the loss of Gronk. Gronk's highest function was to be the guy that Brady could throw to regardless of how he was being covered. This season Brady will have multiple guys who can fill that function. So if the TE's only amass 400 yds this season. or the 700 we got last year, Josh McDaniels will figure out how to fill those Gronk routes with big and relatively fast receivers.

4. The biggest area I think we will feel Gronk's loss is at the 2nd TE spot. (I think Izzo can adequately replace Allen as a blocker). But the more I think on it, Gordon is a great blocker on runs, so is Edelman, and one of the most impressive things I saw about Harry was the fact he is a TENACIOUS, and more than willing blocker on run plays. So while we lose Gronk's blocking we are gaining in having 3 top grade blockers at receiver on runs. It might not be as big a loss as it couldn't have been.

5. Here's what I got to say about Gordon's reliability. We all know that the next play could be a player's last play in the NFL. That goes especially at the WR position. So sure, no one can be sure that Gordon is going to last the season, but as we have seen so often, no one can be sure that ANYONE is going to last the season, so why worry about it....or even make a big deal about it. It is what it is, and why worry about things you can't control.

6. In my mind Edelman, Gordon, Harry, and Dorsett are locks That leaves one sure roster spot for Harris, Inman, Barrios, and Meyers to fight for. Maybe they'll keep 6 WR's and 2 TE's to start the season, maybe not. I know Dorsett has his detractors, thought I don't know why its so virulent, but his unique skill set, his catch/target percentage, and his familiarity with Brady make him a lock in my book .

7. I can easily see DThomas start the season on PUP and sit the first 6-10 games and be ready to add experienced depth, if necessary. I can see Meridith stay where he is and be stashed for next season.

8.It is more than Ironic that a DAY after the media was moaning about the lack of WR's, it is entirely possible that 3 NFL quality WR's will get cut in the next 15 days. Take your pick between Meyers, Inman, Harris, and Barrios. It is very likely that only one will join Edelman, Gordon, Harry, and Dorsett on the final 53. Hard to have a crisis at WR when you have let 3 decent guys go.

9. BTW- anyone thought about hiring Randy Moss to be Gordon's personal life coach. He'd certainly be someone Gordon would listen to. Besides he's worked with a number of WR's in the off season. It would be great to have him around all season occasionally working with the WR's on specific things. He's smart and knows his stuff.

Agree with almost everything but I don't think Dorsett is a lock. Should still make it but I think it's a stretch to call him a lock. At this point we can agree, Dorsett is a JAG.

 

[Biffins]

Except he was basically on that pace last year.

2019 Fantasy Football Draft Prep: Will Josh Gordon's return unleash a superstar?

From the article...

Gordon, who famously led the league in receiving yards back in 2013 in just 14 games, saw time in 11 contests with the Patriots in 2018. It took him a little while to find his footing, as he wasn't targeted more than five times in a game until Week 5, his second game with the Patriots. Over his next nine games, however, Gordon caught 37 of 64 targets for 669 yards and three touchdowns, a near-1,200 pace, on better than 10 yards per target. That's impressive stuff considering he was joining a complex offense in the middle of the season.

Now, he's got nearly a year under his belt with the Patriots playbook, and spent time working out with Tom Brady in the offseason — one of those signs that the Patriots expected him to be cleared at some point. Gordon averaged 65.5 yards per game with the Patriots, and honestly, that might be closer to his floor than his ceiling.
Gordon proved he still has plenty left in the tank in 2018 and has been productive whenever he has been on the field even given all the ups and downs. Sure, there's been nothing close to that incredible 2013 season, but in 16 games over the last two seasons — we'll throw out the one game he played a minor role for the Browns before they traded him in 2019 — he's had 1,055 yards on 58 catches. And again, that was being thrown into the fire mid-season, without much familiarity with the team around him or his quarterback.

How high can the ceiling be? Well, we wouldn't expect him to be the Patriots' top target in the passing game as long as Julian Edelman (108 targets in 12 games last season) is around, but the Patriots have plenty of targets to replace from last season: 72 from Gronkowski, 55 from Chris Hogan, 28 from Cordarrelle Patterson … There's room for Gordon, to be sure.

And, given the efficiency Gordon showed with Brady last season, he won't need a ton of targets to be productive, especially since he might be the lone true deep threat on the team. Let's say Edelman gets to 135-140 targets in a full season, and Gordon settles in as the No. 2 option with 125. At last season's catch and yards-per-target rate, that's 72 catches for close to 1,300 yards. And, with no Gronkowski around, Gordon is going to look like an awfully enticing red zone option for Tom Brady, so something in the range of nine touchdowns isn't out of the question. That kind of hypothetical line — 72-1300-9 — would have been good for the No. 13 WR last season.

From your mouth to God's ears.............

 

[Biffins]

No no no.

I said he wasn’t excellent. I stand by that.

Someone said who would be joining the team early in the season. I said moss was.

That is not comparing Gordon to moss. That is not holding Gordon to the standard of being as good as moss.

That is responding to the excuse with an example of someone who disproves it at lest to an extent.

Andy, chill out man.

 

[Crazy Patriot Guy]

Pretty much that’s where you walked in


Again you are implying my position is different than it is.
I’ve aaid nothing negative about Gordon’s 2018. I said it was ok not excellent. Do you disagree? Excuses aside?
What he did is what he did. I’m just not going to elevate or diminish what someone does on the field with excuses.
I honestly don’t understand why this is an argument. Well I do because people in this board just want to twist things into what they aren’t but otherwise there should be no disagreement here.

You elevate what he did within the context of what few others have done for the Patriots.

Malcolm Mitchell caught 6 passes for 70 yards in Super Bowl 51. Just looking at receiving stats over 53 Super Bowls, that performance is simply "ok."

But once you factor in that he's still the only rookie WR to catch a pass from Tom Brady in what is now 9 Super Bowls, the trust Tom showed in him in the 4th quarter with the game on the line, I don't know how you can think of his performance as anything but excellent.

Considering the Pats history with WRs, Gordon's lack of games played for almost half a decade and his hammy, yes I think his season was close to excellent. At the very least, it was much better than just ok. If he doesn't improve this year, it's all on him.

 

[Biffins]

Who cares about the style????? I get it. You're more of a Dorsett - fast guy gets separation - fan. It doesn't matter if the WR gets 4 yards open or is contested. All that matters is the completion and the yardage.

Results, Biffins. Results.

.

Don't care about style. And I think Dorsett gets cut. But Brady got some interceptions that could be avoided. Balls that Brady would have thrown away when noone was open, he was heaving to Gordon and hoping. It's ok. Clearly we got results.

I think Gordon's familiarity with the system will allow him to play better and faster and gain more separation and remove some of those concerns. Very excited he's back.

 

[Ring 6]

You can't be serious. I'm looking around waiting for the laugh track.

Guess you weren’t a fan then.

 

[TommyD4207]

Don't think he can play in that game.

He can, he's active Sunday. As the 50 time consecutive offseason champs, you should know this.

 

[JetFan79]

He can, he's active Sunday. As the 50 time consecutive offseason champs, you should know this.

Last I heard he can only attend the game, but cannot play.

 

[shmessy]

Also, FYI Gordon's 2018 performance can be punctuated with his paltry $600K cap hit.

Another point of excellence, given the situation!

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