Switch to 3-4 seems to be getting more official

[patfanken]

This is a pretty simplistic statement but I think it'll all come down to BB keeping the best defensive players and that is what will drive the scheme and the formations.

As of right now the best interior DTs are Pennel, Guy, Butler and Shelton. I guess Guy and Butler could play more DE in the 3-4. Shelton and Pennel seem more pure NT to me. Those are the best 4 players.

Clearly Wise and Bennett are not DTs but more of your 275lb DE. They seem more 4-3 DE and maybe could be 3-4 DE a few times a game.

IMO the strength is the LBs. High, Bentley, Collins and Roberts are more "inside" guys but High and Collins can play outside.

KVN, Chase, Rivers, Simon and Calhoun seem more OLB dime DEs to me.

So.....I guess I'm in the camp as saying they'll have the personnel to play 3-4 or 4-3- depending on the matchup. I don't see BB committing one way or the other.

I think that whatever we end up seeing will be a lot more "fluid" than "standard" alignments.

Like I said in a previous post we should start to get away from defining players from strict position definitions like who is a FS vs a SS, even to the point where CB's will play all over the field, and it gets even worse at LB and edge players. Is a guy like Winovich a DE or OLB, same goes for Rivers and the rest of the guys playing out there.

Trying to define what's happening in this defense would be exhausting if we had to limit ourselves to those preconceived position descriptions.

Looks to me like BB is taking the NEXT step in the evolution of defenses to combat the high powered passing attacks under the current rules of engagement. In an age where 70% completion rates are becoming the norm defenses HAD to change something, and like we've seen many times over the last 20 years, the Pats will lead the way.

 

[JarOfMayo51]

BB has always been about the best way to utilize the talent that he happens to have. When he drafted CJones his best position was as a DE, with no Vince or his replacement he went to a 4-3 at EXACTLY the time most teams were switching to a 3-4 base. And we've been a 4-3 base team for the last several years and drafted accordingly.

Now when Bill looks at his roster, he HAS to think, "how can I get more LB's on the field". LB is clearly a strength of this team. In the last couple of years we often had only 2 on the field most of the time. That would be a waste this year. Also having NT prototypes like Pennell and Shelton didn't hurt either.

But here's the thing that I'm wondering about. Are we going to see a 2 gaping, read and react, DL across the board in this iteration of the 3-4. I don't think so. I'm thinking we are going to see a more aggressive version of the 3-4. More, ironically, like the 3-4 that Pittsburgh ran under **** Lebeau.

Shelton, Bennett, Wise seem better suited as perpetrators than 2 gap guys. Guy at DE and Pennell at NT can be 2 gap guys when that is called for, but there aren't a lot of guys that fit that 2 gap DE role on this roster. Maybe Wise can get big and strong enough to do it, but it seems to me it would be a waste to have some like Bennett doing something very often that is not what he does best.

Bottom line: while we seem to be morphing into something that "looks" like a 3-4 base, I'm not sure it will be the 3-4 we are used to seeing, and I think that's a good idea.

Well stated, I agree that it’s likely they won’t be the same 2 gap style 3-4 defense as they were years ago

A 1 gap attacking 3-4 isn’t really all that different than a 4-3

The chargers ran a 3-4 defense awhile back and had Shawn Merriman “blitzing” on like 95% of the snaps, so really it was much like a 4-3 with 1 DE standing up

 

[RobertWeathers]

I think that whatever we end up seeing will be a lot more "fluid" than "standard" alignments.

Like I said in a previous post we should start to get away from defining players from strict position definitions like who is a FS vs a SS, even to the point where CB's will play all over the field, and it gets even worse at LB and edge players. Is a guy like Winovich a DE or OLB, same goes for Rivers and the rest of the guys playing out there.

Trying to define what's happening in this defense would be exhausting if we had to limit ourselves to those preconceived position descriptions.

Looks to me like BB is taking the NEXT step in the evolution of defenses to combat the high powered passing attacks under the current rules of engagement. In an age where 70% completion rates are becoming the norm defenses HAD to change something, and like we've seen many times over the last 20 years, the Pats will lead the way.

I think he wants to take the Chung/hybrid role to the next level. Players like JoeJuan and Obi are physical models. Now they need to prove it on the field.

 

[NG Pats Fan]

As long as Matt swifty Patricia is not running this defense, we will be mean aggressive and deadly

 

[Kontradiction]

BB has always been about the best way to utilize the talent that he happens to have. When he drafted CJones his best position was as a DE, with no Vince or his replacement he went to a 4-3 at EXACTLY the time most teams were switching to a 3-4 base. And we've been a 4-3 base team for the last several years and drafted accordingly.

Now when Bill looks at his roster, he HAS to think, "how can I get more LB's on the field". LB is clearly a strength of this team. In the last couple of years we often had only 2 on the field most of the time. That would be a waste this year. Also having NT prototypes like Pennell and Shelton didn't hurt either.

But here's the thing that I'm wondering about. Are we going to see a 2 gaping, read and react, DL across the board in this iteration of the 3-4. I don't think so. I'm thinking we are going to see a more aggressive version of the 3-4. More, ironically, like the 3-4 that Pittsburgh ran under **** Lebeau.

Shelton, Bennett, Wise seem better suited as perpetrators than 2 gap guys. Guy at DE and Pennell at NT can be 2 gap guys when that is called for, but there aren't a lot of guys that fit that 2 gap DE role on this roster. Maybe Wise can get big and strong enough to do it, but it seems to me it would be a waste to have some like Bennett doing something very often that is not what he does best.

Bottom line: while we seem to be morphing into something that "looks" like a 3-4 base, I'm not sure it will be the 3-4 we are used to seeing, and I think that's a good idea.

I only see a more “aggressive” 34 like Pittsburgh being possible if BB and Mayo trust the backer or backers who don’t blitz to be able to hold up in coverage in passing situations. If they can’t, you’re not going to see that. I’m also not convinced the team is going to take a DB (our true strength) off the field for a LB (a position with a lot of bodies that looks strong right now). IMO, they signed Pennell to better be able to defense the run out of the Nickel.

 

[jah]

This is a pretty simplistic statement but I think it'll all come down to BB keeping the best defensive players and that is what will drive the scheme and the formations.

As of right now the best interior DTs are Pennel, Guy, Butler and Shelton. I guess Guy and Butler could play more DE in the 3-4. Shelton and Pennel seem more pure NT to me. Those are the best 4 players.

Clearly Wise and Bennett are not DTs but more of your 275lb DE. They seem more 4-3 DE and maybe could be 3-4 DE a few times a game.

IMO the strength is the LBs. High, Bentley, Collins and Roberts are more "inside" guys but High and Collins can play outside.

KVN, Chase, Rivers, Simon and Calhoun seem more OLB dime DEs to me.

So.....I guess I'm in the camp as saying they'll have the personnel to play 3-4 or 4-3- depending on the matchup. I don't see BB committing one way or the other.

I believe based on the one preseason game, Calhoun is a DE who slides inside to play DT in certain passing situations.

 

[PP2]

BB has always been about the best way to utilize the talent that he happens to have. When he drafted CJones his best position was as a DE, with no Vince or his replacement he went to a 4-3 at EXACTLY the time most teams were switching to a 3-4 base. And we've been a 4-3 base team for the last several years and drafted accordingly.

Now when Bill looks at his roster, he HAS to think, "how can I get more LB's on the field". LB is clearly a strength of this team. In the last couple of years we often had only 2 on the field most of the time. That would be a waste this year. Also having NT prototypes like Pennell and Shelton didn't hurt either.

But here's the thing that I'm wondering about. Are we going to see a 2 gaping, read and react, DL across the board in this iteration of the 3-4. I don't think so. I'm thinking we are going to see a more aggressive version of the 3-4. More, ironically, like the 3-4 that Pittsburgh ran under **** Lebeau.

Shelton, Bennett, Wise seem better suited as perpetrators than 2 gap guys. Guy at DE and Pennell at NT can be 2 gap guys when that is called for, but there aren't a lot of guys that fit that 2 gap DE role on this roster. Maybe Wise can get big and strong enough to do it, but it seems to me it would be a waste to have some like Bennett doing something very often that is not what he does best.

Bottom line: while we seem to be morphing into something that "looks" like a 3-4 base, I'm not sure it will be the 3-4 we are used to seeing, and I think that's a good idea.

Not just getting more LB's onto the field, but also the defensive backs. We'll continue to be in nickel and dime most of the time, especially on passing downs.

I agree that this isn't going to be the standard 3-4 that we're used to seeing.

 

[jah]

I want to be clear: I don't think this means the scheme is changing in any significant way, especially not back to the classic BB Patriots 3-4. It's definitely going to become a point of confusion for fans and media though.

If nothing else, it's also trivially interesting that we're lining our guys up differently and could provide insight on roster battles. I think this development bodes well for Rivers and not so well for Butler. With Wise being approximately added to Butler's position group, there's one more DE/DT and one less OLB/DE. I think Rivers is the frontrunner for a spot at that position after Winovich and Simon. I consider Calhoun in the same tweener category as Wise. He's shown well, but his position is crowded.

 

[RobertWeathers]

I believe based on the one preseason game, Calhoun is a DE who slides inside to play DT in certain passing situations.

Calhoun is 6-4 25o. DE maybe but I don't see as a DT

 

[Ring 6]

Yep. Thats why don't buy into the notion of the team being a pure 3-4 or 4-3. The game is different now.I'm starting to wonder if we should call Chung, Obi or even JoeJuan LBs

No. Because they aren’t.

 

[RobertWeathers]

No. Because they aren’t.

Both were in the box multiple times

 

[Ring 6]

Both were in the box multiple times

Safeties play in the box. That doesn’t make them linebackers.

 

[Patstastic]

NT - Pennell, Shelton
DE - Bennett, Guy, Wise, Butler

ILB - Hightower, Bentley, Roberts
OLB - Collins, Van Noy, Winovich, Simon, Rivers/Calhoun

Guess maybe it’d be something along those lines, with a few of the LBs being able to play inside or out.

That looks like a darn good defense. Has the looks of a top 5 defense in fact.

Will be interesting to see how the playcalling will be divided. I could see BB calling most of the plays starting out. Then maybe have Mayo adjust into the role slowly.

 

[RobertWeathers]

Safeties play in the box. That doesn’t make them linebackers.

They do more than that as well

 

[Ring 6]

I only see a more “aggressive” 34 like Pittsburgh being possible if BB and Mayo trust the backer or backers who don’t blitz to be able to hold up in coverage in passing situations. If they can’t, you’re not going to see that. I’m also not convinced the team is going to take a DB (our true strength) off the field for a LB (a position with a lot of bodies that looks strong right now). IMO, they signed Pennell to better be able to defense the run out of the Nickel.

The most enormous keys to a nickel base are
1) a space eating DT and a second one who is at least ok
2) a beast of a run defender at lb (Hightower)
3) DEs who compete in the run game
4) a safety who can come up and play the run
IF you don’t have all of those you have the defense that faced the eagles in the Sb

 

[Ring 6]

They do more than that as well

Yeah they play safety. If you want to play ignorant to what a safety does, we should move on.

 

[Joker]

no defense faced the Eagles that day

 

[RobertWeathers]

Yeah they play safety. If you want to play ignorant to what a safety does, we should move on.

Did Chung and Rodney have LB responsibilities? Big Nickel SS here has LB responsibilities and then some

 

[mosslost]

A 'hungry' Deatrich Wise appears to be fighting for a roster spot in a new role



So, this tells me 2 things:

1) The switch to a 3-4 is real (although we know nickel is the true base)
2) The team sees Wise as a DE regardless of what kind of alignment we have

 

[patchick]

I think that whatever we end up seeing will be a lot more "fluid" than "standard" alignments.

Like I said in a previous post we should start to get away from defining players from strict position definitions like who is a FS vs a SS, even to the point where CB's will play all over the field, and it gets even worse at LB and edge players. Is a guy like Winovich a DE or OLB, same goes for Rivers and the rest of the guys playing out there.

Trying to define what's happening in this defense would be exhausting if we had to limit ourselves to those preconceived position descriptions.

Looks to me like BB is taking the NEXT step in the evolution of defenses to combat the high powered passing attacks under the current rules of engagement. In an age where 70% completion rates are becoming the norm defenses HAD to change something, and like we've seen many times over the last 20 years, the Pats will lead the way.

Amen. While we may or may not see more 3-man fronts this season, I can't imagine it will be any kind of "return" to the Seymour-Wilfork-Warren style of 3-4.

This defensive roster is bursting with versatile players in the 6'2"-6'3" 255 range, like Hightower, Collins, Van Noy, Bentley, and Winovich. That, more than any specific front, points to what I expect from this season's defense.