NBA Draft - Trades - Free Agents

[Deus Irae]

Comments:

1.) Walker is 6'1"...the average NBA PG is approx 6'2". Not exactly undersized in my book...hell..John Stockton was 6'1"...so was Nate Archibald...Terry Rozier too.....most PG's will get posted up when they have to switch off on defense...it is what it is.

Walker is listed as 6'1, 184. That's undersized in the NBA. Frankly, I'm stunned that you're even trying to argue this.

2.) Per this link NBA statistics, efficiency ratings. Point Guards. Basslinespin.com 2018-19 NBA regular season. Walker was the 5th most efficient PG going into the 2018-2019 season (Kyrie was #2, BTW).

Look, I like Walker. I'd be happy to see the Celtics take him, if the price was right and/or the signing wouldn't hamstring them more than I think it's worth. And, stats aside (stats without context = garbage), I generally found him to be an inefficient player as a point guard. I freely admit that I lower my opinion of a point guard's efficiency if I think he's shooting too much when there are passing options available, if that helps you to feel comfortable dismissing my take on this.

3.) I was not comparing Walker vs. Durant in a value context. I was comparing ages...if we expect Durant to play at a high level from 30-34...we can expect the same from Walker (and Horford showed us he was OK between 30-33). NBA players have far more longevity these days than they used to due to advances made in conditioning, so it stands to reason that teams can still expect elite level of play through a player's mid-30's.

Inherent in the age comparison is the player comparison, otherwise you wouldn't make the comparison. So now you're being misleading.

 

[IcyPatriot]

If that is going to happen I wouldn't sign Kemba Walker we couldn't beat them in our Dreams. Lebron - Davis and Kawhi Leonard are all Elite at their respective positions. They are all Great on the Defensive end too...Three Elite two way players. LA is now Title Town.

I disagree ... you still need to field a team of high ambition.
Super teams should not hinder what Boston does ... fans will enjoy this team.

Ideally the team needs a great 5 ... but that is just not available for the Celtics this year.

 

[Hyped]

Walker is listed as 6'1, 184. That's undersized in the NBA. Frankly, I'm stunned that you're even trying to argue this.



Look, I like Walker. I'd be happy to see the Celtics take him, if the price was right and/or the signing wouldn't hamstring them more than I think it's worth. And, stats aside (stats without context = garbage), I generally found him to be an inefficient player as a point guard. I freely admit that I lower my opinion of a point guard's efficiency if I think he's shooting too much when there are passing options available, if that helps you to feel comfortable dismissing my take on this.



Inherent in the age comparison is the player comparison, otherwise you wouldn't make the comparison. So now you're being misleading.

Comments:

1.) 184 lbs is undersized? LOL, likewise I am surprised you are arguing that 6'1"/184 is undersized for a NBA PG. It is like one standard deviation from the mean at the most....IOW on the small side, but not enough to be called undersized, IMO.

2.) I would like to see Walker's efficacy weighted vs. him being the #1 scoring option and drawing double teams (like Horford was supposed to do in November).

3.) I was responding to a post earlier in this thread that pointed out Walker was gonna be on the wrong side of 30 and thus was an old man not worthy of 4/140.

4.) Last, but not least.... 4/140 might hamper us...but that is the going rate for an All Star PG in this league...either we want Walker or we want to go in another direction and remain flexible (shrugs)...for me..I just want to play ball and still think the C's can get to the ECF with Walker and one more mid level big better than any other combo.

 

[Deus Irae]

Comments:

1.) 184 lbs is undersized? LOL, likewise I am surprised you are arguing that 6'1"/184 is undersized for a NBA PG. It is like one standard deviation from the mean at the most....IOW on the small side, but not enough to be called undersized, IMO.

Yes, 6'1", 184 lbs is undersized for the NBA. You can keep arguing against this, but you'll be wrong every time.

2.) I would like to see Walker's efficacy weighted vs. him being the #1 scoring option and drawing double teams (like Horford was supposed to do in November).

I would like to see the Celtics become better as a team while maintaining full flexibility moving forward. The rest really doesn't matter. But, with regards to your point here, I concede that it's entirely possible that part of what I perceive as an efficiency negative in Walker's game is because of his opinion of the quality of player around him. That wouldn't necessarily justify that perceived negative, but it might offer the possibility that things would change if Walker was playing with a different cast.

However, one problem here is that Stevens continues to try playing a heavy switch, heavy 3 point shooting, system with bad fits at personnel, and Walker would just add to that problem, as he's not big enough for the switches, and not a good enough shooter overall for the trigger man.

3.) I was responding to a post earlier in this thread that pointed out Walker was gonna be on the wrong side of 30 and thus was an old man not worthy of 4/140.

You made a terrible comparison to a player who's at a different position, is a larger player, and is a better player. The value isn't in the same stratosphere, and smaller pgs who drive the lane tend to have shorter careers.

Now, having said that, it's possible that Durant will never be the same, or may 'age' more quickly than many because of his playing style combined with his height. But those willing to pay him are gambling on a unicorn of a player where the tables don't really apply, as opposed to a relatively standard pg, so the upside will shift the perception of the value.

4.) Last, but not least.... 4/140 might hamper us...but that is the going rate for an All Star PG in this league...either we want Walker or we want to go in another direction and remain flexible (shrugs)...for me..I just want to play ball and still think the C's can get to the ECF with Walker and one more mid level big better than any other combo.

Why should anyone care about getting to the ECF this year? That's not the goal.

 

[Doctor DDS]

Kemba is a great guy, great teammate and a very good player. As a UCONN grad I will never forget his run in 2011 through the Big East and NCAA tournament's. That said, I would rate him as a 3rd tier "star" in the same general stratosphere as a Horford, a healthy Hayward and others of that ilk. Not one of the transcendent players and a step below tier 2 players like Kyrie and Klay Thompson.
I have a complete inability to grasp the NBA financial system and player contracts when players like Rozier will allegedly command somewhere in the $15M/year range and the Celtics can lose the contracts of Horford, Kyrie and Morris yet still need to renounce Rozier just to have enough cap space to sign Kemba. He is clearly not worth $35M/year logically but in today's NBA structure I think it probably makes sense to grab him and hope some of the kids take big leaps. NBA is potentially wide open this year.

 

[Deus Irae]

Kemba is a great guy, great teammate and a very good player. As a UCONN grad I will never forget his run in 2011 through the Big East and NCAA tournament's. That said, I would rate him as a 3rd tier "star" in the same general stratosphere as a Horford, a healthy Hayward and others of that ilk. Not one of the transcendent players and a step below tier 2 players like Kyrie and Klay Thompson.
I have a complete inability to grasp the NBA financial system and player contracts when players like Rozier will allegedly command somewhere in the $15M/year range and the Celtics can lose the contracts of Horford, Kyrie and Morris yet still need to renounce Rozier just to have enough cap space to sign Kemba. He is clearly not worth $35M/year logically but in today's NBA structure I think it probably makes sense to grab him and hope some of the kids take big leaps. NBA is potentially wide open this year.

The problem, here, is the cap rules. The Celtics could actually have kept Irving and Horford, while keeping all of their other players, and they might have made a good run this year (assuming Irving and Terry weren't still misbehaving, and Hayward was back close to 100%). But, because of the workings of the rules, the Celtics couldn't replace either player without jettisoning other players. That's why what Golden State was able to do is so out of the norm: They had drafted three top quality players (Curry, Green, Thompson) and good role players (i.e. Iguodala, Livingston) and were still able to bring in Durant before the players already there got their monster contracts.

But Boston doesn't have the same quality draftees, the same quality role players, or the ability to bring in a Kevin Durant.

I would also argue that Golden State has ruined basketball by changing the way the game is played in a way that's mostly going to be unique to that team, but that's a different issue.

 

[Jackson 2]

My point still stands that Kemba Walker is Not a $35M/year player.

Is K. Irving?

 

[captain stone]

My point still stands that Kemba Walker is Not a $35M/year player.

Is K. Irving?

Not to the Celtics he is, that's for damn sure.

 

[RobertWeathers]

Which reminds me, I wonder if that fan who dumped beer on tyreek ever gets his ban rescinded?

He should get free lux box for a year

 

[Brick27]

Why does Zach Lowe dislike the Celtics so much? Merely “compete” for the 4th seed is really the ceiling in his supposed ideal scenario for the team?

“But Walker is really good. Chasing a restricted free agent -- Brogdon -- is a high-risk, low-reward game. Boston is going to play Brown, Tatum, and Hayward together a lot, meaning one of them will function as power forward. Depending on how free agency unfolds in Boston and elsewhere, this version of the Celtics has a chance to compete for the No. 4 seed in the East.”

Lowe: Seven big questions heading into NBA's crazy free agency

 

[Deus Irae]

Why does Zach Lowe dislike the Celtics so much? Merely “compete” for the 4th seed is really the ceiling in his supposed ideal scenario for the team?

“But Walker is really good. Chasing a restricted free agent -- Brogdon -- is a high-risk, low-reward game. Boston is going to play Brown, Tatum, and Hayward together a lot, meaning one of them will function as power forward. Depending on how free agency unfolds in Boston and elsewhere, this version of the Celtics has a chance to compete for the No. 4 seed in the East.”

Lowe: Seven big questions heading into NBA's crazy free agency

Lowe's possible thinking:

• Bucks will be ahead
• 76ers will be ahead
• Raptors (or maybe Brooklyn + Kyrie & Co.?) will be ahead
• Celtics competing with the likes of Indiana and either the Leonard-less Raptors or the Nets

That would be a reasonable take, given the current state of the Celtics' #4 and #5 spots.

 

[Brick27]

Lowe's possible thinking:

• Bucks will be ahead
• 76ers will be ahead
• Raptors (or maybe Brooklyn + Kyrie & Co.?) will be ahead
• Celtics competing with the likes of Indiana and either the Leonard-less Raptors or the Nets

That would be a reasonable take, given the current state of the Celtics' #4 and #5 spots.

Yeah I get all that, but I think their ceiling if they sign Walker and other pieces is higher than merely having a “chance” to compete for the 4th spot. 76ers and Raptors both have uncertainty of their own. Not saying they’re a clear favorite or anything, but seems to be cutting them a little short given nobody knows what the hell will happen.

 

[Deus Irae]

Yeah I get all that, but I think their ceiling if they sign Walker and other pieces is higher than merely having a “chance” to compete for the 4th spot. 76ers and Raptors both have uncertainty of their own. Not saying they’re a clear favorite or anything, but seems to be cutting them a little short given nobody knows what the hell will happen.

Boston can add one top player. That's it. They're losing 2, and they're losing their backup center, as well. They're going to need to trade for a big, as well as signing Walker, if they're going to be looked at as any real player in the East.

So I'm not seeing the problem with looking at them as no more than a 4 seed right now. Lowe has a reasonable take, whether it ends up being correct or not. I certainly don't think it's a position that merits the "He hates us" sort of response.

Let's save that for Phil Simms' idiot son.

 

[Hyped]

Deleted for brevity.

We will have to agree to disagree as to what constitutes as an undersized NBA PG. I am thinking Mugsy Bogues to Isaiah Thomas. Not a 6'1"/184 guy.

Yes, we aren't bringing in Walker to D up. We are bringing in a ball handler and a scorer. That is something we don't have right now unless we want to depend on Rozier's streaky shooting or Smart's improved shooting from last year. Also, I feel that he isn't going to be the #1 offensive option for the first time since he played with Al Jefferson maybe in his 3rd/4th year. I think he will fit right in. The best guys he ever played with are Jefferson, Batum, Dwight Howard, and Jeremy Lamb. I believe his shooting efficacy will go up.

My larger point was that you can pay guys in their early 30's. Durant might be a superior player and doesn't drive to the basket much or wear himself out as much as NBA PG's do, but he is still 30 and four teams are backing up the Brink truck for him even if he will miss 82 games. 30+ doesn't mean you are dead yet. Paying Walker carries no more risk than paying Hayward.

Reaching the ECF is my benchmark as we did not reach it last year. The Raptors went on a 8-2 run to finish the season and were damn close to a 8-0 finish. I just want a puncher's chance this year after blowing a potential 60 win season last year, IMO.

 

[zydecochris]

Lowe's possible thinking:

• Bucks will be ahead
• 76ers will be ahead
• Raptors (or maybe Brooklyn + Kyrie & Co.?) will be ahead
• Celtics competing with the likes of Indiana and either the Leonard-less Raptors or the Nets

That would be a reasonable take, given the current state of the Celtics' #4 and #5 spots.

I agree that is a reasonable take. To improve over last year, one or more of three players need to make a major leap compared to last year’s performance: Tatum, Brown, or Haywood. All could very well make a leap, with Haywood seemingly being most likely to me if he simply returns to pre-injury form, but I have high hopes for Tatum and Brown too.

 

[IllegalContact]

Lowe's possible thinking:

• Bucks will be ahead
• 76ers will be ahead
• Raptors (or maybe Brooklyn + Kyrie & Co.?) will be ahead
• Celtics competing with the likes of Indiana and either the Leonard-less Raptors or the Nets

That would be a reasonable take, given the current state of the Celtics' #4 and #5 spots.

What is the sixers current state at the 2,3,4?

The sixers (embiid and Simmons) have proven to be playoff doormats

The raptors are a borderline playoff team without Leonard

Who were the 4 & 5s in the NBA finals?

 

[IllegalContact]

I agree that is a reasonable take. To improve over last year, one or more of three players need to make a major leap compared to last year’s performance: Tatum, Brown, or Haywood. All could very well make a leap, with Haywood seemingly being most likely to me if he simply returns to pre-injury form, but I have high hopes for Tatum and Brown too.

It’s a league that is run by the 3 and D wings......the celts are tips in the east when it comes to that

 

[IllegalContact]

4s and 5s can be rentals franchise 4/5 typically don’t get to the finals

 

[IllegalContact]

 

[Ras-IR Dowling]

Sounds like kemba is planning on signing with the Cs when free agency begins.