Brady vs Jordan

[Antdawg]

So you can't make an arguments that the 1990s Bulls could have won a championship without Jordan because it's theoretical, and they didn't win in one try? But you can make plenty of theoretical arguments about how other quarterbacks would perform in an alternate universe with the 2018 Patriots, or in Super Bowl 53?

And you really think if the Rams had scored 21 points, the Patriots still score just 13? Yikes.

The Bulls literally stopped winning championships as soon as Jordan retired and then won 3 straight as soon as he came back. (please don't be silly and count '95 as him being back) As for signing another star player and winning more rings without Jordan, why didn't they? That team was falling apart when MJ came out of retirement.

Look, I regard Brady as the best QB in pro football history. Hands down. But one of the things that made Jordan unique was that he could dominate you on both sides of the ball. He was the shut down defense guy. To even suggest the Bulls could have simply signed a FA to replace his production at the height of his prime is silly.

Which brings up another issue with the Jordan comparisons... dude retired right smack in the middle of his prime years. Came back and his first full season back, he sets the then all-time record for regular season NBA wins and wins the next 3 Finals. To quit your craft like that and come back better than you were when you left is no minor feat in of itself. Muhammad Ali-esque. As a professional athlete, nobody could dominate you at all phases of the game like Michael Jordan could.

 

[Doctor DDS]

Brady's team success absolutely blows away Jordan's. It was not until after the Celtics, Lakers and Pistons got old that the Bulls were able to break through. It was an extremely impressive 8 year run but not sure it was any more impressive than what the 80's Lakers accomplished or what the Warriors are about to do (if they can keep the team together) It obviously does not compare to the 60's Celtics. He was more famous and certainly more athletically gifted but I never once saw him take a weaker version of the Bulls any farther than expected.

 

[Ice_Ice_Brady]

And if you watched the last game, with as well as the Rams defense was playing, and believe many QBs could do what Brady did, then I would suggest you do not understand much of the role of a QB.

For many reasons, it is evident he doesn't grasp this, along with many other excellent points that you make.

 

[Ice_Ice_Brady]

The Bulls literally stopped winning championships as soon as Jordan retired and then won 3 straight as soon as he came back. (please don't be silly and count '95 as him being back) As for signing another star player and winning more rings without Jordan, why didn't they? That team was falling apart when MJ came out of retirement.

Look, I regard Brady as the best QB in pro football history. Hands down. But one of the things that made Jordan unique was that he could dominate you on both sides of the ball. He was the shut down defense guy. To even suggest the Bulls could have simply signed a FA to replace his production at the height of his prime is silly.

Which brings up another issue with the Jordan comparisons... dude retired right smack in the middle of his prime years. Came back and his first full season back, he sets the then all-time record for regular season NBA wins and wins the next 3 Finals. To quit your craft like that and come back better than you were when you left is no minor feat in of itself. Muhammad Ali-esque. As a professional athlete, nobody could dominate you at all phases of the game like Michael Jordan could.

He chose to walk away, which is what I keep coming back to as the reason he isn't the clear GOAT. Ali was forced away from boxing and then regained the title at age 39. Jordan's championship peak was from 1991-1998. Brady's was 2001-2018 (and counting). Kareem's was 1971-1988. Ali was 1964-1978.

The idea that Jordan is unique as a two-way NBA star is ridiculous. Kareem Abdul-Jabar was an 11X all-defensive team selection. LeBron James is 6X. Kobe Bryant was 12X.

How convenient that Jordan walked away as an immortal (or did we forget about his last return with the Wizards) and an iconic shot to win it all? He never won a title or even made the finals without Pippen and Jackson, and I'd compare those pre-1990 Bulls teams to some of LeBron's Cavs teams. How many titles would Jordan have won if he had not retired voluntarily twice and actually played his entire career like all these other GOAT NBA contenders? We'll never know. I guess he wasn't the GOAT since he was unable to handle playing in the NBA after three-peating twice, whereas other guys could.

 

[Antdawg]

For many reasons, it is evident he doesn't grasp this, along with many other excellent points that you make.

LOL, yeah I think I already said Brady is the best QB of all time. There's no debate here that he is a virtuoso QB and that he is magical out there. Never said he wasn't. But to act like he's in a class above MJ is ridiculous. As many have pointed out, you can't compare the two, because they are two different sports.

But Jordan as a player, was much more versatile and could beat you in many more ways. He dribbled great, he was a great passer, he won defensive player of the year how many times?, he could shoot 3's, he could dunk, he could rebound, he could hit free throws and nobody was more clutch at crunch time than Michael f'n Jordan. He did it all. And that's not to say TB12 is one dimensional, but he ain't going to beat you with his legs and he's not super versatile like MJ was. If you want to put them at the same table together, that's fine, but to suggest Brady is above MJ I think bespeaks of homerism. There has never been an athlete that was so single-handedly dominant at his craft than Michael Jordan.

 

[SHOWTIME15]

This is pretty funny...Max Kellerman, Stephen A, and Will Cain debate this topic. Kellerman and Cain really go at it...

 

[Ice_Ice_Brady]

LOL, yeah I think I already said Brady is the best QB of all time. There's no debate here that he is a virtuoso QB and that he is magical out there. Never said he wasn't. But to act like he's in a class above MJ is ridiculous. As many have pointed out, you can't compare the two, because they are two different sports.

But Jordan as a player, was much more versatile and could beat you in many more ways. He dribbled great, he was a great passer, he won defensive player of the year how many times?, he could shoot 3's, he could dunk, he could rebound, he could hit free throws and nobody was more clutch at crunch time than Michael f'n Jordan. He did it all. And that's not to say TB12 is one dimensional, but he ain't going to beat you with his legs and he's not super versatile like MJ was. If you want to put them at the same table together, that's fine, but to suggest Brady is above MJ I think bespeaks of homerism. There has never been an athlete that was so single-handedly dominant at his craft than Michael Jordan.

Despite my screen name, I'm not here solely to pump up Brady. I just don't think Jordan is the clear GOAT of NBA basketball. I was alive and well for Jordan's entire career...he is certainly one of the greatest of all-time, and his peak might be the highest. His overall career accomplishments, measured efficiency, ability were not unique. Television advertising, Nike, and other factors, including his decision to walk away with an image of perfection (despite having plenty of gas in the tank) are reasons why I believe people place Jordan over everyone else like there is no question. Basketball is a sport where a handful of players have absolutely dominated the league on both ends of the court for many years and been virtually unstoppable. Counting up accomplishments, like overall number of championships, looking at how long their championship dominance lasted from, considering how many different "setups" they had with different teams and players around them...those things are all big factors. Of course I will not dispute Jordan's greatness. I just think he may not even be the GOAT of the NBA, let alone all sports.

 

[RayRay]

For some of you who are stating that Jordan played both sides of the ball and was more versatile is ridiculous considering there is no harder position to play in sports than quarterback.
You’re trying to downplay the skills needed to play the quarterback position.

In basketball you have guards and some forwards who can easily play the 2 guard.
In football it’s not even close. Other than the quarterbacks, there’s no one else who can play that position.

There’s more failure in the professional level in that position than any other sport.

 

[Ice_Ice_Brady]

This entire “he should retire now and go out on top for his legacy” was invented by Michael Jordan and Nike.

 

[1960Pats]

Kareem Abdul-Jabar
19X All-Star
6X MVP
6X Champion
10X NBA Finalist

Why is Jordan better than him again?

Because he had better marketing?

 

[Ice_Ice_Brady]

Because he had better marketing?

Glad I’m not the only one and not a tin foil hat wearer.

 

[Bobsyouruncle]

Not really, because they didn't. But I can think of a lot of QBs that would have won a football game if their defense held an otherwise high-powered offense to 3 points total. Jordan had everything to do with the Bulls winning 6. Brady didn't play a single snap on defense in SB53.

Time of possession is a big reason the defense held them to three points. You can’t just assume another QB can keep the ball so the Rams offense is on the sideline.

Maybe another QB does the same but we don’t know. We do know the Brady led Patriots never had a losing season, while the Jordan led Bulls had several.

 

[scout]

Cut from HS team, game winner in NCAA title as freshman, flashy but took his lumps climbing to NBA title, literally globalized the NBA via marketing, 3-peat, retires, comes back like Jesus after trying baseball, fails briefly, 3-peat again while taking the entire league to the woodshed and setting team win record, retires (second time) after nailing (and POSING FOR!) title winning shot. You literally could not write his story, it would defy suspension of disbelief.

I throw up a little in my mouth when I read this. The author must have been a Jordan homer. "Cut from his high school team?" He was a sophomore and my guess is the guy was taller than Jordan. Do you know Jordan invited him to his HOF speech so Jordan could rant on him?

Orr.

Red used to say, 50 miles outside of Boston the Bruins were UCLA Bruins. The Bruins/Celtics had a very bad relationship. Although, Bobby Orr did change the game of hockey, unlike a prolific scorer.

Jordan left the NBA voluntarily in 1994 and essentially missed two seasons. He then retired in 1998 despite still being at the height of his powers. When he returned in 2001 he was clearly too old.

He didn't voluntarily retire from basketball to pursue baseball. He owed the mob a lot of money for gambling and had to cool his jets. The owner of the Bulls also owned the White Sox. Around Chicago, there is a rumor that Jordan's dad was murdered by the mob. While that may not be true, the death of his dad is a tad shady.

A word about Jordan and Russell. Man, Jordan could jump! Not sure he could jump like Julius Erving. Although, he sure had the marketing. Let's be clear, Bill Russell was an athletic freak (he jumped 6'9"). Micheal Jordan was not up to Russell's defensive abilities. Nine out of 10 blocked shots went to Celtics (Red), and he had a lot of them per game (NBA did not keep tabs). I would probably give Jordan the nod over Russell. Just not garbage people spew.

The question is not comparing sports, but comparing GOATS. Coincidently, when a comparison is made of John Hannah and a present day offensive lineman a physical comparison is made. That has nothing to do with it. The criteria is how did Hannah perform against his competition versus how does today's guard perform. Therefore, how did Jordan perform against his competition versus Brady.

Brady gets the nod over Jordon as the GOAT player. BTW, Brady is not done.

 

[Ice_Ice_Brady]

During that Facebook show, Brady told Gisele something like “just two more” when he had five. I’ve been very adamant that I don’t think he’ll retire before age 45 - regardless of the last few Super Bowl ourtcomes - because he is so passionate about his fitness and diet ideas that he wants to push the limits of aging. That said, I do wonder if he has an agreement with Gisele that he’d retire if he wins 7. This GOAT thread has gotten me doing some digging about American athletes in the modern era (so excluding the rather impossible-to-duplicate feats of the Yankees, Celtics, and Canadiens), and 7 is indeed a significant number.

Championships Won (icons only, all four major sports)

Tom Brady - 6
Kareem Abdul-Jabar - 6
Michael Jordan - 6
Mark Messier - 6
Magic Johnson - 5
Tim Duncan - 5
Kobe Bryant - 5
Derek Jeter - 5
Bart Starr - 5
Joe Montana - 4
Wayne Gretzky - 4
Patrick Roy - 4

Robert Horry, of course, has 7 titles because the universe is orderless.

Otto Graham had 7 titles in the borderline modern era, but 4 of them were AAFL. That league really should not count as there were only a few competitive teams, though Graham probably would have easily won more than 3 had he played his entire career in the NFL.

 

[MrNathanDrake]

With 6 rings now, no one in NFL history is even close to Brady. Montana is really the only one that can even be mentioned in the same sentence.


When it comes to Jordan.... there's a lot of comparisons to him as a player (LeBron, Kobe, etc) , and to his dynasty with the Bulls (Lakers, Celtics). There isn't a massive gap between him and the guys after him. With Brady, there is.

 

[Bruins29]

Sorry mike. You are no Tom Brady

 

[wolverinejoe80]

During that Facebook show, Brady told Gisele something like “just two more” when he had five. I’ve been very adamant that I don’t think he’ll retire before age 45 - regardless of the last few Super Bowl ourtcomes - because he is so passionate about his fitness and diet ideas that he wants to push the limits of aging. That said, I do wonder if he has an agreement with Gisele that he’d retire if he wins 7. This GOAT thread has gotten me doing some digging about American athletes in the modern era (so excluding the rather impossible-to-duplicate feats of the Yankees, Celtics, and Canadiens), and 7 is indeed a significant number.

Championships Won (icons only, all four major sports)

Tom Brady - 6
Kareem Abdul-Jabar - 6
Michael Jordan - 6
Mark Messier - 6
Magic Johnson - 5
Tim Duncan - 5
Kobe Bryant - 5
Derek Jeter - 5
Bart Starr - 5
Joe Montana - 4
Wayne Gretzky - 4
Patrick Roy - 4

Robert Horry, of course, has 7 titles because the universe is orderless.

Otto Graham had 7 titles in the borderline modern era, but 4 of them were AAFL. That league really should not count as there were only a few competitive teams, though Graham probably would have easily won more than 3 had he played his entire career in the NFL.

bill russell - 11

 

[wolverinejoe80]

With 6 rings now, no one in NFL history is even close to Brady. Montana is really the only one that can even be mentioned in the same sentence.


When it comes to Jordan.... there's a lot of comparisons to him as a player (LeBron, Kobe, etc) , and to his dynasty with the Bulls (Lakers, Celtics). There isn't a massive gap between him and the guys after him. With Brady, there is.

among QBs? yes, there's a massive gap. but in all players? i heard these names in the GOAT debate - LT, jerry rice, and even deion sanders.

IMO there's no such thing as a consensus GOAT in any sports. because people arent rational. even the great muhammad ali isn't a consensus GOAT. there's rocky marciano, joe lewis, sugar ray robinson, etc, etc.

i think we should just brady's body of work speak for himself.