Malcolm Butler Mega Thread

[QuantumMechanic]

What we know is that the defense with butler on the field allowed 14 ppg.

the defense with butler NOT on the field, gave up 44 points.

So what? You are missing a very crucial piece of information -- what the defense would have given up with Butler playing. You can't simply handwavingly assume it would be better. Well, I suppose you could, but then you can't draw any conclusions from it because you'd be assuming your conclusion.

 

[Kontradiction]

No, we don't have any such results. We only have suppositions and guesses about how the defense would have performed with Butler in there. For all we know it could have done worse. Not likely, admittedly, but a possibility, especially since we don't know why Butler was benched.

The defense gave up 41 points and forced one punt the entire game. Butler being in the game takes the defense out of the Big Nickel which moves McCourty back to his natural role, Chung back to his natural role, and takes Richards and Bademosi off the field altogether. It’s an absolute certainty the defense would have performed better.

 

[Chris Stevenson]

What we know is that the defense with butler on the field allowed 14 ppg.

the defense with butler NOT on the field, gave up 44 points.

The team is undefeated in superbowls where butler played defense.

When you are giving up points on every drive, you need to change something. the patriots didn't and they lost. there was zero adjustment. plain and simple thats on the coaches.

Oh, so the TEAM is undefeated when Butler plays GOOD defense. This is your deduction from why he would have somehow guaranteed victory?

What would your adjustments have been? We had no Hightower, no Nink, no Valentine as well. Chung got concussed. This latter issue is bigger than people want to admit, which has nothing to do with Butler.

The D was missing key people, other than a better version of what we used to know Butler to be.

Hint: It's a lot more than one guy named Butler that was not on the field compared to SB 51.

Also, Foles played better than Wilson and Ryan over 4 qtrs.

 

[Chris Stevenson]

The defense gave up 41 points and forced one punt the entire game. Butler being in the game takes the defense out of the Big Nickel which moves McCourty back to his natural role, Chung back to his natural role, and takes Richards and Bademosi off the field altogether. It’s an absolute certainty the defense would have performed better.

Philly forced ZERO punts didn't miss FGs or PATs and they held in the red zone better even though Rex Burkhead was kidnapped.

How does Brady not demand Burkhead on the field? Just curious.

 

[Chris Stevenson]

So what? You are missing a very crucial piece of information -- what the defense would have given up with Butler playing. You can't simply handwavingly assume it would be better. Well, I suppose you could, but then you can't draw any conclusions from it because you'd be assuming your conclusion.

That's what they keep doing. They think it's 2015 with Pro Bowl Butler. They're wrong.

Butler got leapfrogged by Bademosi, which is telling.

 

[Ras-IR Dowling]

If he was benched the entire game for only a curfew violation, Belichick went full ******. If he threatened or assaulted coaches, that’s another thing.

If he threatened or assaulted coaches, there’s no way he dresses imo

 

[Steve102]

what is the record on thread size?

 

[bormio]

Reports after the game suggested that players AND coaches were “furious” with the decision. If he had assaulted a coach, hard to believe that would have been the case. Nobody knows what happened, but if there was discord in the locker room before the game, it was disastrous.

 

[IcyPatriot]

what is the record on thread size?

PatsFans.com - Patriots Fan Forum

 

[Simpelton]

Here's what it comes down to here folks. You either trust Belichick or you don't. That's the only decision to be made right now.

If you trust Belichick, then the decision of whether or not to run damaged goods onto the field in a #21 jersey doesn't matter because damaged goods in a #21 jersey does not change the fact that Nicke Foles was locked in like a laser beam.

If you don't, you play the woulda coulda shoulda game, a guy whose play had slipped BADLY in the last 3-4 games suddenly becomes Superman and does Butlerceptions every single defensive down, and we win in a walk.

That's the whole conversation. Ultimately since BB didn't choose to share his actual reasoning that's what we're down to. We're left believing one of two things

1: Bill not telling us the reason clearly means Butler was benched for no reason
2: Bill not telling us the reason clearly does not mean Butler was benched for no reason.

Ultimately, you are paying your money and making your choice on this one, and I know which seems the least ******ed to me.

What the reason may or may not have been ultimately doesn't matter because that information was not shared with us. That's your twofold choice. Believe, or disbelieve, it's up to you.

Just a reminder -- this is a guy who was undrafted and working at Popeyes -- because his bad attitude and lack of respect for the coaches got him thrown out of college ball. Worth remembering. Is it more likely that he was persecuted by Bill, or that the disappointment over the contract issue caused him to backslide once he started short-timing in New England, and Bill didn't trust him to focus?

 

[Steve102]

PatsFans.com - Patriots Fan Forum

this will be a bronze medal thread very soon!

 

[sb1]

If this decision really was as egregious as it’s being made out to be - I really believe Belichick would have been either fired or gently asked to step aside. The perception of singlehandedly losing a Super Bowl is a fireable offense no matter what your resume is.

The fact he is still our coach makes me think the organization understands why this decision was made. Perhaps there is more that we don’t know that led them to feel that way.

 

[Kontradiction]

Philly forced ZERO punts didn't miss FGs or PATs and they held in the red zone better even though Rex Burkhead was kidnapped.

How does Brady not demand Burkhead on the field? Just curious.

Philly played terrible defense as well. That doesn’t excuse the **** game our D turned in.

As for your second question? Not sure. I would have liked to see Burkhead on the field more often myself.

 

[Kontradiction]

Here's what it comes down to here folks. You either trust Belichick or you don't. That's the only decision to be made right now.

If you trust Belichick, then the decision of whether or not to run damaged goods onto the field in a #21 jersey doesn't matter because damaged goods in a #21 jersey does not change the fact that Nicke Foles was locked in like a laser beam.

If you don't, you play the woulda coulda shoulda game, a guy whose play had slipped BADLY in the last 3-4 games suddenly becomes Superman and does Butlerceptions every single defensive down, and we win in a walk.

That's the whole conversation. Ultimately since BB didn't choose to share his actual reasoning that's what we're down to. We're left believing one of two things

1: Bill not telling us the reason clearly means Butler was benched for no reason
2: Bill not telling us the reason clearly does not mean Butler was benched for no reason.

Ultimately, you are paying your money and making your choice on this one, and I know which seems the least ******ed to me.

What the reason may or may not have been ultimately doesn't matter because that information was not shared with us. That's your twofold choice. Believe, or disbelieve, it's up to you.

Just a reminder -- this is a guy who was undrafted and working at Popeyes -- because his bad attitude and lack of respect for the coaches got him thrown out of college ball. Worth remembering. Is it more likely that he was persecuted by Bill, or that the disappointment over the contract issue caused him to backslide once he started short-timing in New England, and Bill didn't trust him to focus?

Damaged goods eh? Sounds like you’re now beginning to assume why Butler was benched yourself.

You also open with a borderline appeal to authority.

 

[lancerman]

The baby logic 0f "you either trust Belichick or you don't" is laughable.

How about you think Bill Belichick is capable of making a bad decision or you think he is an infallible deity who never has made a mistake. That's how stupid that line of reasoning is.

And lol at the people who don't understand how the defense works and think just saying "Butler wasn't as good this season is a justification".

Butler was still our number 2 CB at worst and by a greater margin than Rowe. As mentioned by another poster having Butler in the game accomplished this.

-putting our second best CB on the field.
-taking Richards and Bademosi who are not good out of the game.
-having Chung and McCourty play on their regular assignments.

That format has worked all but the first few weeks of the season. That was a format that made the defense the best in points since week 5 and a top 5 in points for the entire season despite a historically bad start.

Anybody who doesn't think him being in their wouldn't make a difference is off the reservation.

 

[maust]

Amidst all the rants, frustrations and speculation contained in this thread it's important not to lose sight of one simple fact, Ray Lewis Killed A Guy.

 

[aluminum seats]

The baby logic 0f "you either trust Belichick or you don't" is laughable.

How about you think Bill Belichick is capable of making a bad decision or you think he is an infallible deity who never has made a mistake. That's how stupid that line of reasoning is.

And lol at the people who don't understand how the defense works and think just saying "Butler wasn't as good this season is a justification".

Butler was still our number 2 CB at worst and by a greater margin than Rowe. As mentioned by another poster having Butler in the game accomplished this.

-putting our second best CB on the field.
-taking Richards and Bademosi who are not good out of the game.
-having Chung and McCourty play on their regular assignments.

That format has worked all but the first few weeks of the season. That was a format that made the defense the best in points since week 5 and a top 5 in points for the entire season despite a historically bad start.

Anybody who doesn't think him being in their wouldn't make a difference is off the reservation.

Well said. You're arguing with people who view Belichick as a god and can do no wrong.

We're now at "Butler assaulted a coach." Of course, Butler played too, so that's curious...

 

[Kontradiction]

Well said. You're arguing with people who view Belichick as a god and can do no wrong.

We're now at "Butler assaulted a coach." Of course, Butler played too, so that's curious...

I highly doubt he assaulted a coach. Thats just something thrown about in this thread. But I don’t think it was a decision that was best for the team on the field either. Something happened for him to get benched. Whether it was warranted or not, we won’t know until more comes out. But there’s ZERO question that it negatively affected the defense.

 

[aluminum seats]

I highly doubt he assaulted a coach. Thats just something thrown about in this thread. But I don’t think it was a decision that was best for the team on the field either. Something happened for him to get benched. Whether it was warranted or not, we won’t know until more comes out. But there’s ZERO question that it negatively affected the defense.

What would make it warranted? That would still lead to Butler dressing AND playing, which he did?

 

[mosi]

If this was any other team, we would say a move like this is going to leave them broken.