Malcolm Butler Mega Thread

[RobertWeathers]

My son got shot in the leg (rubber bullet) at the umass postgame riot Sunday nite.....

Serious? My buddy's kid who plays for the football team was off -campus when that went down. Is he ok?

 

[supafly]

The Gilmore move happened before halftime

The question posed was whether or not any positive adjustments were made and why Belichick would ignore to make them, which obviously includes keeping Butler on the sidelines and ignoring the fact that Eagles WRs were making big plays.

I believe that we can point to the adjustment of Gilmore on Jeffrey as an example that an attempt was made, and that it seemed to have a positive effect. My bad on the timeline. I thought it was an adjustment made at the half.

At any rate, the suggestion was that Belichick did nothing to combat the opposition and that’s what I disagreed with, and also the reason why we’re down this particular rabbit hole.

 

[Satchboogie3]

The question posed was whether or not any successful adjustments were made at halftime. I believe one example of this could be the decision to place Gilmore on Jeffrey, full time.

The game seemed to fall apart at the end, but I thought they did a better job than in the beginning. Philly needed two second half questionable TDs that baffled both announcers, a crucial 4th down attempt where the QB had to talk the HC out of punting, and a late game strip sack at the end to score those points.

It’s my opinion that they came to them easier in the first half, and that while only a minimal improvement occurred, the second half was slightly better. Based on the fact that they allowed less points in the second half, I’d say that one can at least make that argument. So again—you should attempt to respect the opinions of others even if you disagree with it. I’m not claiming that I’m right and you’re wrong. I’m stating my opinion and why I believe that way.

Again, less points means nothing when viewed in a vacuum. They wanted to shorten the game in the second half with a lead. They did. Situational football. Scoring 16 points on 3 drives that kill 16 minutes is far far FAR worse when trailing than scoring 22 points on 6 drives that take 14 minutes. 6 drives means your offense had a crack at 5-7 possessions. 3 means they had far less. Situational. That absolute worst thing the defense can do when trailing in the 2nd half is give up long, clock killing drives.

 

[bormio]

The question posed was whether or not any successful adjustments were made at halftime. I believe one example of this could be the decision to place Gilmore on Jeffrey, full time.

The game seemed to fall apart at the end, but I thought they did a better job than in the beginning. Philly needed two second half questionable TDs that baffled both announcers, a crucial 4th down attempt where the QB had to talk the HC out of punting, and a late game strip sack at the end to score those points.

It’s my opinion that they came to them easier in the first half, and that while only a minimal improvement occurred, the second half was slightly better. Based on the fact that they allowed less points in the second half, I’d say that one can at least make that argument. So again—you should attempt to respect the opinions of others even if you disagree with it. I’m not claiming that I’m right and you’re wrong. I’m stating my opinion and why I believe that way.

They handled the run game better in the 2nd half, but were hopeless vs Foles. The first half looked not so bad because Jeffrey gifted us an INT.

 

[IllegalContact]

Serious? My buddies kid who plays for the football team was off -campus when that went down. Is he ok?

Ya.....just a bruise....he’s a magnet for that sh.t

 

[supafly]

They handled the run game better in the 2nd half, but were hopeless vs Foles. The first half looked not so bad because Jeffrey gifted us an INT.

Right, I agree, but we should also remember that the INT occurred within the 5 yard line as they were preparing to score again, and also that the second half saw them give up less points.

22 in the first half (should’ve been 24)
19 in the second half (3 on the strip sack which automatically put them in FG range)

 

[Ring 6]

Please explain “Johnny Manziels brain into Butler”. If you’ ve been paying attention everyone involved said it was performance, not discipline. Belichick said it was performance. Shefter’s sources said performance. Minnehan’s said performance. Butler denied any of the unfounded rumours. So if both Belichick and Butler said it wasn’t due to discipline, don’t make Butler out to be some Johnny Manziel like character.

The performance issues are based in being duffucult to coach, not picking up the schemes that were in the gameplan and if you are so naive to think there wasn’t an attitude issue, rule violation or something of that sort, I don’t know what to telll you.

There are many reports of issues and you are citing the 2 people in the world who would never make them public.

Belichick also said it was a complicated situation and would be a long explanation

If you want to think belichick spent 4 years playing and relying on butler yhen one day re-evaluated him entirely differently for no reason you simply are out of your mind.

 

[IllegalContact]

They handled the run game better in the 2nd half, but were hopeless vs Foles. The first half looked not so bad because Jeffrey gifted us an INT.

Without butler they put Chung on agholor

They should have kept him on Ertz .... that way we would not have had both of them torching us

 

[RobertWeathers]

Ya.....just a bruise....he’s a magnet for that sh.t

I have a problem with rubber bullets. I don't think they should be used as a crowd control measure/riot suppressant.

...and I'm a gun owner.

 

[GorBelSer]

Agree.
Please list out who was out of their usual matchups. Rowe is always on the outside. Chung played 1/2 of his snaps in the slot

This was as far as I could go. Rowe is always on the outside? Who is he covering, Butler or Gilmore?
Chung used to play in slot years ago but that is not his strong suit, especially not now when is 30 and heavier. He is our TE countermeasure, not some guy that could be wasted on small WRs.

 

[supafly]

They allowed one less point in the 2nd 1/2. By way of trending analysis they improved

Actually, 3 less points (22 versus 19).

Also, the first half saw them botch two more points so it should’ve been 24, and the second half was 16 prior to the strip sack at the end that placed them inside FG range.

 

[IllegalContact]

I have a problem with rubber bullets. I don't think they should be used as a crowd control measure/riot suppressant.

...and I'm a gun owner.

Better than the real thing I’d bet......he’s my youngest and he’s a great kid but everything is a great idea until it’s not ....spontaneous to a fault, he’s basically a 6’4” Stu.....it’s possible I would have shot him myself

 

[supafly]

Again, less points means nothing when viewed in a vacuum. They wanted to shorten the game in the second half with a lead. They did. Situational football. Scoring 16 points on 3 drives that kill 16 minutes is far far FAR worse when trailing than scoring 22 points on 6 drives that take 14 minutes. 6 drives means your offense had a crack at 5-7 possessions. 3 means they had far less. Situational. That absolute worst thing the defense can do when trailing in the 2nd half is give up long, clock killing drives.

Certainly valid points and a strong argument, but don’t come down on someone when you jump in the middle of a debate where you choose to move the goalposts, take things out of context, and then claim that “there’s no valid argument to suggest that the defense played any better in the second half,” when all one needs to look at are points allowed, just to start with.

I think you’re correct in your explanation, but again—I was asked to explain my thinking about Belichick not making any improvements that may have made a difference, so that’s what I did.

 

[Satchboogie3]

Right, I agree, but we should also remember that the INT occurred within the 5 yard line as they were preparing to score again, and also that the second half saw them give up less points.

22 in the first half (should’ve been 24)
19 in the second half (3 on the strip sack which automatically put them in FG range)

I don't get why this is so difficult to understand.
22 points on 6 drives, 6 3rd/4th down conversion
16 points on 3 drives, while killing 16 of 28 minutes, limiting the Pats offensive opportunities. 7 3rd/4th down conversions

The points-per-drive and yards per drive were FAR worse in the second half, and more 3rd/4th down conversions, despite 3 fewer drives. I think this is kind of important, so I'm going to repeat it. DESPITE 3 FEWER Drives, the DEFENSE Gave up MORE 3rd/4TH down CONVERSIONS IN THE 2nd Half. The absolute worst thing to do defensively when trailing is to fail to get off the field on 3rd down. Again, situational. Philly was more than happy to go on long clock killing drives than score as many points as possible.

Seriously, it's not his hard...

 

[RobertWeathers]

This was as far as I could go. Rowe is always on the outside? Who is he covering, Butler or Gilmore?
Chung used to play in slot years ago but that is not his strong suit, especially not now when is 30 and heavier. He is our TE countermeasure, not some guy that could be wasted on small WRs.

Nah dude Chung played a ton in the "slot" this year.

The caveat is the matchup.

Clearly BB does not prefer to put Chung on a WR. Thats a bad scene.

BB does prefer to put Chung on a TE split out wide in which he was elite.

This matchup trickle down problem supports the "With Malcolm out, that completely screwed the defense"

 

[Mack Herron]

No way BB played the best players. Nobody believes that. The rest is speculation.

 

[RobertWeathers]

Actually, 3 less points (22 versus 19).

41 points total...Ugh. Thank you. Long day.

Also, the first half saw them botch two more points so it should’ve been 24, and the second half was 16 prior to the strip sack at the end that placed them inside FG range.

Yep.

 

[Satchboogie3]

Certainly valid points and a strong argument, but don’t come down on someone when you jump in the middle of a debate where you choose to move the goalposts, take things out of context, and then claim that “there’s no valid argument to suggest that the defense played any better in the second half,” when all one needs to look at are points allowed, just to start with.

I think you’re correct in your explanation, but again—I was asked to explain my thinking about Belichick not making any improvements that may have made a difference, so that’s what I did.

I'm not trying to be a jerk and I apologize for coming off that way. I just don't understand how people think the defense played better in the second half. That's literally the opposite of the game I watched...

 

[supafly]

I don't get why this is so difficult to understand.
22 points on 6 drives, 6 3rd/4th down conversion
16 points on 3 drives, while killing 16 of 28 minutes, limiting the Pats offensive opportunities. 7 3rd/4th down conversions

The points-per-drive and yards per drive were FAR worse in the second half, and more 3rd/4th down conversions, despite 3 fewer drives. I think this is kind of important, so I'm going to repeat it. DESPITE 3 FEWER Drives, the DEFENSE Gave up MORE 3rd/4TH down CONVERSIONS IN THE 2nd Half. The absolute worst thing to do defensively when trailing is to fail to get off the field on 3rd down. Again, situational. Philly was more than happy to go on long clock killing drives than score as many points as possible.

Seriously, it's not his hard...

See my above response. I don’t think there’s anywhere else to go with this. Just a slight difference in opinions and I can see both sides.

 

[Boomer B]

The performance issues are based in being duffucult to coach, not picking up the schemes that were in the gameplan and if you are so naive to think there wasn’t an attitude issue, rule violation or something of that sort, I don’t know what to telll you.

There are many reports of issues and you are citing the 2 people in the world who would never make them public.

Belichick also said it was a complicated situation and would be a long explanation

If you want to think belichick spent 4 years playing and relying on butler yhen one day re-evaluated him entirely differently for no reason you simply are out of your mind.

I’ll believe the people with sources inside the Patriots.

Minnehan’s source said yesterday that Belichick had soured on Butlers play and wanted to take him out against the Jags but was talked out of it. He told the Coaches and Captains a few hours before the game Butler wasn’t going to play. It wasn’t about discipline. Shefter, maybe the best out there, said his sources also said it wasn’t disciplinary.

So I’ll choose to believe those with sources in the organization. Belichick put him on the bench due to his play, not because he was disciplining him. What I, and 99% of the other rational people out there can’t understand, is why the hell he kept him on the bench.