Malcolm Butler Mega Thread

[YOUGOTMOSSED]

It won’t happen, but the fans deserve an honest answer from Belichick as to why a Pro Bowl corner was voluntarily sat throughout an entire Super Bowl. A game where your defense was historically bad.....like worst all-time bad.

There’s absolutely no excuse for what happened. It cost us a title.

I don't think Belichick really "owes" us anything. It sucks that Butler didn't play. It probably would have given us a better chance to win if he did play. I'm taking it on faith that there was a damn good reason for the benching-Belichick doesn't seem like a flighty person making rash decisions.

 

[StockingAnarchyNumber12]

The 2009 team was a revamped team with huge chemistry issues, Brady coming off of ACL surgery, and not really comparable. The 2007 and 2008 teams, particularly on offense, were comparable.

It's folly for anyone to try to minimize the Brady difference. The reality is that, even at the very beginning (2001), Belichick was 0-2 without Brady as his starter, and 14-3 with Brady as his starter. The reality is also that BB is 55-63 in the regular season, without Brady as his starter (36-44 in Cleveland and 19-19 in New England).

Once can come up with reasons and/or excuses for the differences, but ignoring them and/or minimizing the Brady effect is not the way to go.

I am on team Brady and am more than ever, but holding that 11-5 season against Bill is a stretch. As I said earlier, Brady is why we have 5 rings.

 

[StockingAnarchyNumber12]

And won the AFC East. And went to the playoffs. On a newly-repaired ACL.

Yes, but I'm saying I dont hold the 08 season against Bill and won't.

 

[Todd Bradley]

I don't think Belichick really "owes" us anything. It sucks that Butler didn't play. It probably would have given us a better chance to win if he did play. I'm taking it on faith that there was a damn good reason for the benching-Belichick doesn't seem like a flighty person making rash decisions.

Unless Butler committed a felony, which he didn’t, there’s absoutley no reason why one of your best defenders shouldn’t see the field in a Super Bowl where you gave up 22 points at the half and 41 in total.

The Belichick apologist nonsense needs to stop. He’s still the GOAT coach, but GOAT coaches make mistakes too. He made a critical, game changing error and he needs to own up to it.

This wasn’t a “my bad, I called the wrong play” mistake. He benched a Pro Bowler and sat back and watched the defense subsequently crash and burn in a fiery blaze, erasing our shot at a title. If Butler plays the second half of the game, we’re not having this conversation right now, period.

 

[DropKickFlutie]

The 2009 team was a revamped team with huge chemistry issues, Brady coming off of ACL surgery, and not really comparable. The 2007 and 2008 teams, particularly on offense, were comparable.

It's folly for anyone to try to minimize the Brady difference. The reality is that, even at the very beginning (2001), Belichick was 0-2 without Brady as his starter, and 14-3 with Brady as his starter. The reality is also that BB is 55-63 in the regular season, without Brady as his starter (36-44 in Cleveland and 19-19 in New England).

Once can come up with reasons and/or excuses for the differences, but ignoring them and/or minimizing the Brady effect is not the way to go.

Brady isn't even in the NFL if Belichick doesn't draft him and keep 4 QB's on the roster, when QB was their only position of strength. Then, evelated Brady over a multi Pro Bowler in Drew Bledsoe. Tom Brady doesn't even become a starting QB , ever, without Bill Belichick

.

 

[SalemPats]

We don't know why Butler was on the bench. We do know that, for at least most of the year

Butler > Rowe
Butler > Bademosi

It's naive to think that having the better player wouldn't have increased the odd chances of victory, unless the reason for the move was rooted in something particular that would plainly have influenced his play for that particular game. Two of the current speculations, "Butler was sick and didn't practice well during the week" and "Butler was drunk and yelled at coaches the night before", both fall short of that threshold.

The Butler was drunk and yelled at coaches the night before seems like it doesn't make sense since they probably would have made him a healthy scratch and not played him a play on STs

 

[StockingAnarchyNumber12]

Brady isn't even in the NFL if Belichick doesn't draft him and keep 4 QB's on the roster, when QB was their only position of strength. Then, evelated Brady over a multi Pro Bowler in Drew Bledsoe. Tom Brady doesn't even become a starting QB , ever, without Bill Belichick

.

Doesnt change the fact we are 0-5 in the last 5 superbowls without Brady heroics and Atlanta choking a lead.

 

[Deus Irae]

I am on team Brady and am more than ever, but holding that 11-5 season against Bill is a stretch. As I said earlier, Brady is why we have 5 rings.

I agree, but I didn't take that poster's post as using it against BB. I took it (and the post you'd responded to which led to that) as showing the Brady effect.

After going 18-1 the year prior with Brady.
Cassel made a Pro Bowl without Belichick.
Belichick got fired without Brady.

is all true, and

... The one year BB didn't have him, we failed to win the AFC East and missed the playoffs entirely. Remember? And then Tom returned and we've won the AFC East and punched a ticket to the postseason every year since.

is also true.

In fact, according to some rumors/reports, that's a part of why BB wanted to keep JAG around, as he thought JAG gave him a chance to win without Brady, and to show that he could win without TB as his triggerman.

 

[Deus Irae]

Brady isn't even in the NFL if Belichick doesn't draft him and keep 4 QB's on the roster, when QB was their only position of strength. Then, evelated Brady over a multi Pro Bowler in Drew Bledsoe. Tom Brady doesn't even become a starting QB , ever, without Bill Belichick

.

That's 100% speculation and 0% fact.

 

[DropKickFlutie]

That's 100% speculation and 0% fact.

100% fact. The last Cleveland Browns playoff victory ever is still Belichick's team. Fact, Belichick has won over three quarters of his games when Brady out hurt/suspended. I love Brady but you're being silly trying to diminish Belichick

 

[Betterthanmost]

In fact, according to some rumors/reports, that's a part of why BB wanted to keep JAG around, as he thought JAG gave him a chance to win without Brady, and to show that he could win without TB as his triggerman.

A bigger part of me disagree that BB will stoop so low to be that haughty and hubris. His groceries on defense yesterday was ripe for the taking though. He could have suffered an all time humiliation in the superbowl without Brady.

 

[cmasspatsfan]

Unless Butler committed a felony, which he didn’t, there’s absoutley no reason why one of your best defenders shouldn’t see the field in a Super Bowl where you gave up 22 points at the half and 41 in total.

The Belichick apologist nonsense needs to stop. He’s still the GOAT coach, but GOAT coaches make mistakes too. He made a critical, game changing error and he needs to own up to it.

This wasn’t a “my bad, I called the wrong play” mistake. He benched a Pro Bowler and sat back and watched the defense subsequently crash and burn in a fiery blaze, erasing our shot at a title. If Butler plays the second half of the game, we’re not having this conversation right now, period.

That's fan boy thinking, I wish MB played and we won but BB has to think like a coach not a fan boy.

 

[Deus Irae]

100% fact. The last Cleveland Browns playoff victory ever is still Belichick's team. Fact, Belichick has won over three quarters of his games when Brady out hurt/suspended. I love Brady but you're being silly trying to diminish Belichick

You need to learn the difference between speculation and fact.

Fact: Tom Brady is the starting QB for the New England Patriots.
Speculation: If the Patriots hadn't drafted Brady, then Brady would not be in the NFL.

"If Patriots, then Brady" is not a programming if/then coding line. It is a hypothetical if/then speculation

 

[upstater1]

I give Brady most of the credit, but few coaches have ever had the credibility and work ethic to install such a winning culture. He is prepared, he doesn't compromise, he works hard. I don't think he's a genius in devising an incredible Xs and Os gameplan, but I think he is steady enough to have made the players buy in.

Brady benefits from that because there is so much continuity. When the Patriots offense is in trouble, Brady has an arsenal he can resort to, any number of plays or ways of addressing certain situations. Most other teams have a small writing pad, they go year to year. Brady knows the page # of a small book tucked away in a library.

Belichick is more Parcells than we give him credit for. He installs the uncompromising culture. It creates the stability and continuity Brady needs. Then Brady goes out there and mesmerizes people in the pocket like no one ever before him. So credit the player over the coach, but don't discount the coach.

 

[upstater1]

100% fact. The last Cleveland Browns playoff victory ever is still Belichick's team. Fact, Belichick has won over three quarters of his games when Brady out hurt/suspended. I love Brady but you're being silly trying to diminish Belichick

Look up Cassel's #s with KC, you'd be surprised. Better than his performance with the Patriots. He made the Pro Bowl.

This Sunday Brady threw for 500+ yards while the defense couldnt stop a backup QB. Brady was largely responsible for everything good that happened and only one bad play, and that all the bad should be heaped on the defense, but also the head coach. This game was the game that showed their contributions in stark contrast.

 

[Ice_Ice_Brady]

Maybe BB was onto something.

We all remember his famous calculation that the Giants would win if Thurman Thomas ran for 100 yards.

The Patriots would win if the Eagles offense reached 700 yards. They came up just short, hence the painful loss. If he could do it over again, McCourty and Gilmore would be sitting next to Butler on the bench.

 

[PatriotsNumero1Fan]

That's fan boy thinking, I wish MB played and we won but BB has to think like a coach not a fan boy.

Get the heck out of here with that. The guy's a huge part of your secondary. Why suit him up? I feel like he embarrassed the guy. If it wasn't for his heroics in super bowl 49 we would talk about how BB's an overrated defensive genius.

 

[DropKickFlutie]

Look up Cassel's #s with KC, you'd be surprised. Better than his performance with the Patriots. He made the Pro Bowl.

This Sunday Brady threw for 500+ yards while the defense couldnt stop a backup QB. Brady was largely responsible for everything good that happened and only one bad play, and that all the bad should be heaped on the defense, but also the head coach. This game was the game that showed their contributions in stark contrast.

This supports my argument even more. He took a guy who didn't even start at USC, went 11-5 and the guy then had a 27-2 to/int season. So Belichick found a needle in a haystack more than once.

So let's agree on 2 things:
- Brady is the best QB ever, everything you want in a QB besides athleticism. Every single Super Bowl gave them a lead in the last few minutes to win it
- At the same time Belichick created the entire organization, system, and has found backup college QBs like Cassel or guys like Brissett/Jimmy and won over three quarter of his games without Brady

 

[Deus Irae]

This supports my argument even more.

No, it doesn't.

 

[Deus Irae]

At the same time Belichick created the entire organization, system, and has found backup college QBs like Cassel or guys like Brissett/Jimmy and won over a quarter of his games without Brady

You might want to revisit this part of your post