The ASJ Fumble

[bbobbo]

And yet the ball is still pinned to his chest with his forearm. Like I said he’s already landed in the corner of the end zone with the ball and I guess he has to complete his roll around on the ground or something. The fact that we’re analyzing whether he still has or has regained possession in s still photo of ASJ on his back after he has rolled a full 1yard out of the end zone is itself ridiculous.

this is the official NFL game ball:



in the clip below, you can see the gold "NATIONAL FOOTBALL LEAGUE" text and the seam rotate relative to his body. also, the ball starts out contacting his arm close to his wrist, and then slides into the crook of his elbow. that means it's not "pinned to his chest".

click on this link to see a larger version of the gif:

gfycat: The ASJ Fumble

 

[PatriotsReign]

Then you don't understand the rule.

People have to remove the idea of "fairness" from their minds before forming an opinion.

Fairness has very little to do with football or life in general. Yet some are unable to remove it.

 

[PatriotsReign]

this is the official NFL game ball:



in the clip below, you can see the gold "NATIONAL FOOTBALL LEAGUE" text and the seam rotate relative to his body. also, the ball starts out contacting his arm close to his wrist, and then ends up in the crook of his elbow. that means it's not "pinned to his chest".

click on this link to see a larger version of the gif:

gfycat: The ASF Fumble

And you can see space open up between his hand/arm and the football

Player must maintain possession throughout the entire act of the catch

That applies even if the player rolls 6 times out of bounds.

 

[ALP]

i cant believe this thread has 22 pages...

it was a pretty clear cut play, and call, regardless if you like it or not...

 

[ErniesPinkStripes]

I had to explain to a coworker why it was the right call - of course their stance was it was a TD, but even after explaining why it was a fumble/touchback, they had no real ammo besides "I think it was a TD"

ok well, shut up then until you can provide some backup. man I hate people lol

 

[Ring 6]

People have to remove the idea of "fairness" from their minds before forming an opinion.

Fairness has very little to do with football or life in general. Yet some are unable to remove it.

Fairness is applying the rule.
Sure it seems awful that as close as you can get to a TD turns into a turnover but the dude shouldn't have fumbled.
Was butler picking off Wilson caising Seattle to lose a SB by 1 yard "fair"

Is a loss when you have the game win but lose in a last second Hail Mary "fair".
Is a championship caliber team being decimated by injuries and losing to a lesser team in the playoffs "fair".

 

[bormio]

Fairness is applying the rule.
Sure it seems awful that as close as you can get to a TD turns into a turnover but the dude shouldn't have fumbled.
Was butler picking off Wilson caising Seattle to lose a SB by 1 yard "fair"

Is a loss when you have the game win but lose in a last second Hail Mary "fair".
Is a championship caliber team being decimated by injuries and losing to a lesser team in the playoffs "fair".

The most irritating phrase in the English language "That's not fair".

 

[brdmaverick]

I agree with much of the analysis of this post.

My concern is the 'control of the ball' aspect and whether or not he did 'survive the ground'. Honestly I can see where there is room for difference of opinion but it's tough for me to say he didn't have control of the ball.

As a ref I would have let that stand.

 

[yukon cornelius]

I agree with much of the analysis of this post.

My concern is the 'control of the ball' aspect and whether or not he did 'survive the ground'. Honestly I can see where there is room for difference of opinion but it's tough for me to say he didn't have control of the ball.

As a ref I would have let that stand.

he couldn't


this is a scoring review.....everything is on the table

once it was clear there was no possession when the plane was broken, the burden of proof was on re-establishing possession - there is enough doubt, if not outright evidence, that possession was not re-established and control did not survive the ground, that the only conclusion based on the rules was no possession, ball fumbled oob

 

[Ring 6]

this is the official NFL game ball:



in the clip below, you can see the gold "NATIONAL FOOTBALL LEAGUE" text and the seam rotate relative to his body. also, the ball starts out contacting his arm close to his wrist, and then slides into the crook of his elbow. that means it's not "pinned to his chest".

click on this link to see a larger version of the gif:

gfycat: The ASF Fumble

If you roll back earlier you see him drop it again from the left hand to the right after being out of bounds and from a different angle you see him secure it with the left when it starts coming out of the right as he rolls.

 

[InRodWeRust]

This is turning into the Zapruder film. I think we need Oliver Stone to direct a movie called "ASJ". One of the lines can be, "Look how the ball moves. Back and to the left. Back and to the left."

 

[rochrist]

You must be absolutely kidding. I looked at the gif. What are you seeing??? ASJ, fumbles, regains control, hits the ground, rolls over, still has possession. Continues rolling over and as he begins to roll all the way over, across his back, and again towards his stomach, hits hits right elbow on the ground, the ball moves a little bit. Is that that what you’re referring to? That’s ridiculous and probably why Blandine and Pereira both think the call was wrong, and I expect they know the rule better than you. BTW, I’m not missing anything about the rule. It’s the idea that he did not regain possession based on that gif and every other replay I’ve seen that I find ridiculous. How many times does one have to roll over on the ground will the ball clutched to one’s side with no movement is enough? Another quarter turn? A half turn? Finish rolling over and hand the ball to the ref? This retain possession to the ground and in addition some additional time while rolling around on the ground stuff is beyond stupid. If that was Gronk, i’d be screaming about the call.

Well, the ref didn't agree with you. In fact, he said it was clear cut,

 

[Angelpats]

this is the official NFL game ball:



in the clip below, you can see the gold "NATIONAL FOOTBALL LEAGUE" text and the seam rotate relative to his body. also, the ball starts out contacting his arm close to his wrist, and then slides into the crook of his elbow. that means it's not "pinned to his chest".

click on this link to see a larger version of the gif:

gfycat: The ASF Fumble

This is a good clip, the ball is loose, but it won't change a lot of minds unless you roll it back even earlier because the ball starts in the left hand while in bounds but ends up in the right hand when he is out of bounds. The ball moving to the other hand is the proof people need to see to realize that he lost possession when the ball changed hands after he fell.

 

[archstanton543]

This is a good clip, the ball is loose, but it won't change a lot of minds unless you roll it back even earlier because the ball starts in the left hand while in bounds but ends up in the right hand when he is out of bounds. The ball moving to the other hand is the proof people need to see to realize that he lost possession when the ball changed hands after he fell.

Go back to page 12 and 13 for more gifs of the play from different angles.

 

[convertedpatsfan]

You entire explanation makes a mockery of football. I’m comfortable having Blandino an Pereria in my corner on the interpretation. He fumbled, regained control (sorry I said possession above, know what a mistake in word usage) while still in the air, lands in the corner of the end zone at or on the pylon with the bell against his chest, he rolls over and stands up with the ball. Yeah, he checked every box and it should have been ruled that he regained possession and a touchdown. And yes the ball can “move” when he hits the ground so long as he maintains control, the ground does not help him control the ball and the ground doesn’t cause him to lose control. No one outside of New England thinks this should not have been a touchdown.

My entire explanation doesn't make a mockery of football. These are the rules. I did not create them. I did not misinterpret them. I am only repeating the actual rules themselves, not creating fictional ones like you keep trying to do.

I am open to admitting I am wrong. But you, Blandino, Pereira, not a single critic has been able to cite a single rule to prove it wrong. People keep saying, "(Insert Name) thinks it should be a touchdown." That's fine, but explain which rule overturns the obvious ones we've already cited?

You don't get to make things up. And you don't get to pick and choose criteria. Yes, the ball can move on some catches. But not when a player is going out of bounds. You totally ignored that aspect of the play. My list of criteria was clear, they had to check every single box. Did they? Don't pick a few here or there. It's all of the above.

It doesn't matter who thinks what. It matters what it is. And by the rules, it is a touchback. ( edit: thanks @AndyJohnson )If you don't like it, change the rules. But don't lie to everyone and say it's something it's not. Or cite the rule that contravenes the sideline rule.

I've explained it enough times. I've explained it multiple ways. At some point, I have to accept some people just won't be able to read well enough to understand the rule. I think we're pretty much there.

Are you seriously trying to compare a pass defense to this play..? If you think those two plays are even remotely similar then you may need to seek some counseling

Hi, I see you are new to football, welcome.

Might I suggest some really basic primers since you clearly aren't too familiar with the sport?

How to Explain Football to Someone Who Has No Clue

Football For Dummies (USA Edition) Cheat Sheet - dummies

Maybe once you learn the basics, we can have more advanced discussions. In the meantime, all the best and good luck with your upcoming grade 6 standardized tests.

All the best.

 

[bbobbo]

If you roll back earlier you see him drop it again from the left hand to the right after being out of bounds and from a different angle you see him secure it with the left when it starts coming out of the right as he rolls.

This is a good clip, the ball is loose, but it won't change a lot of minds unless you roll it back even earlier because the ball starts in the left hand while in bounds but ends up in the right hand when he is out of bounds. The ball moving to the other hand is the proof people need to see to realize that he lost possession when the ball changed hands after he fell.

here it is including the left-to-right switch:

 

[Ring 6]

here it is including the left-to-right switch:

And he is clearly out of bounds when he uses the right hand to continue to attempt to control the ball.

 

[Ring 6]

My entire explanation doesn't make a mockery of football. These are the rules. I did not create them. I did not misinterpret them. I am only repeating the actual rules themselves, not creating fictional ones like you keep trying to do.

I am open to admitting I am wrong. But you, Blandino, Pereira, not a single critic has been able to cite a single rule to prove it wrong. People keep saying, "(Insert Name) thinks it should be a touchdown." That's fine, but explain which rule overturns the obvious ones we've already cited?

You don't get to make things up. And you don't get to pick and choose criteria. Yes, the ball can move on some catches. But not when a player is going out of bounds. You totally ignored that aspect of the play. My list of criteria was clear, they had to check every single box. Did they? Don't pick a few here or there. It's all of the above.

It doesn't matter who thinks what. It matters what it is. And by the rules, it is a touchdown. If you don't like it, change the rules. But don't lie to everyone and say it's something it's not. Or cite the rule that contravenes the sideline rule.

I've explained it enough times. I've explained it multiple ways. At some point, I have to accept some people just won't be able to read well enough to understand the rule. I think we're pretty much there.



Hi, I see you are new to football, welcome.

Might I suggest some really basic primers since you clearly aren't too familiar with the sport?

How to Explain Football to Someone Who Has No Clue

Football For Dummies (USA Edition) Cheat Sheet - dummies

Maybe once you learn the basics, we can have more advanced discussions. In the meantime, all the best and good luck with your upcoming grade 6 standardized tests.

All the best.

I think the bold is a typo

 

[Ross12]

I just can't believe we've got 22 pages on a Patriots fan site where we have to argue with one another over the implementation of a rule that benefited our own team. I mean I'd understand people being mad and seeking an explanation if it was against the Pats, but the Pats were the beneficiaries here. Why are some people so dead-set on being contrarians that they have to continuously fight against something that helped their own team...? It's like some kind of guilt complex for being a fan of the greatest football dynasty ever or something.

 

[archstanton543]

I just can't believe we've got 22 pages on a Patriots fan site where we have to argue with one another over the implementation of a rule that benefited our own team. I mean I'd understand people being mad and seeking an explanation if it was against the Pats, but the Pats were the beneficiaries here. Why are some people so dead-set on being contrarians that they have to continuously fight against something that helped their own team...? It's like some kind of guilt complex for being a fan of the greatest football dynasty ever or something.

Nothing contrarian here, friend. We're trying to explain to people who say "It was a TD because he hit the pylon" or whatever that they're incorrect because they don't understand the rule. It also helps them explain the rule to Jets or other fans they might run into that say "The refs gave the Pats the win because favoritism" (or whatever).

It sounds like you're in the it was a gift (it wasn't) camp. The rule was applied correctly when you look at the replay from all angles.