Post Game Thread Pats @ Jets

[Mack Herron]

 

[Angelpats]

Depends on what you mean by value

Just win.

 

[Oswlek]

For me the loss of control (bobble) is the least contentious aspect.

Fwiw, the "bobble" isn't the initial strip, it's the movement of the ball after ASJ lands on the ground.

 

[Deus Irae]

Just win.

So you really don't have a meaning, then.

 

[Mack Herron]

Fwiw, the "bobble" isn't the initial strip, it's the movement of the ball after ASJ lands on the ground.

Technically I think it is one and the same bobble. There is a clear loss of control. I don't think anyone claims he regained control then lost it again (though there is much confusion). Rather, I think that once he lost control, the claim is that he did not regain control when he hit the ground. The two tenable arguments are (1) he did not regain control when he transferred hands as he fell on the ball, or (2) it isn't clear he regained control when he fell. Once he rolled over he had control, but that is irrelevant.

 

[Angelpats]

So you really don't have a meaning, then.

What other meaning do you want besides just winning a football game. An Ugly win or a blowout doesn't earn you extra credit for winning.

 

[Deus Irae]

What other meaning do you want besides just winning a football game. An Ugly win or a blowout doesn't earn you extra credit for winning.

The initial comment of this chain (the post of yours that I responded to) was about the value of a win.

A win is tough to come by this season you should be happy we won that game. Just because a rule was enforced doesn't decrease the value of a win.

Whether you care to admit it or not, while all wins are wins, not all wins have equal value. And, whether you care to admit it or not, how you win does sometime increase/decrease the value of a win.

An obvious example of different win value is the win that's the last game of a season, and is a "must win" in order to get to the post-season, versus the last game of a season that has absolutely no impact on any postseason appearances or seeding.

Another example of different win value, using a different notion of value, is the difference between beating an 0-15 football team versus beating a 15-0 football team.

And, an obvious example of "how" you win impacting a type of value is the difference in how Patriots fans value the different SB wins.

 

[Oswlek]

Technically I think it is one and the same bobble.

No, it isn't. ASJ intially lost control, appeared to regain it, and then the ball moved again when he made contact with the ground. Without this latter movement, possession would have begun at the re-clutch point and it would have been a TD. The latter bobble is both distinct and necessary for the decision to overturn.

 

[bigballas]

The "fumble thru EZ" rule has no merit, and your scenario has nothing to do with it, especially because there already is a rule on the books (for several decades) to stop what you're talking about.

Because of the infamous "Holy Roller" play, a fumble cannot be advanced by the offense on any 4th down play and any play at all in the last two minutes of a half unless the fumbler recovers it himself.

So in a covered situation if offensive player X fumbles it forward and offensive player Y recovers it, the ball goes back to where X fumbled it. Only if X recovers it himself will the ball be spotted at the point of the recovery.

ah you're right. so whats the driver for fumble/possesion end zone touchback rule?

 

[Angelpats]

The initial comment of this chain (the post of yours that I responded to) was about the value of a win.



Whether you care to admit it or not, while all wins are wins, not all wins have equal value. And, whether you care to admit it or not, how you win does sometime increase/decrease the value of a win.

An obvious example of different win value is the win that's the last game of a season, and is a "must win" in order to get to the post-season, versus the last game of a season that has absolutely no impact on any postseason appearances or seeding.

Another example of different win value, using a different notion of value, is the difference between beating an 0-15 football team versus beating a 15-0 football team.

And, an obvious example of "how" you win impacting a type of value is the difference in how Patriots fans value the different SB wins.

Oh yeah, late season games for home field and byes are especially valuable. These early games are still important too in determining values for games later on. All these games are important thats why i don't care how we win as long as we do. I replied to this original post because even though we won someone was upset our defense still was bad because if it wasn't for that EZ fumble we would have given up 24 points. I was just happy we won and just hoped to relieve their stress.

 

[PatsFanInVa]

Oh yeah, late season games for home field and byes are especially valuable. These early games are still important too in determining values for games later on. All these games are important thats why i don't care how we win as long as we do. I replied to this original post because even though we won someone was upset our defense still was bad because if it wasn't for that EZ fumble we would have given up 24 points. I was just happy we won and just hoped to relieve their stress.

If you beat 12 pushover teams, and nobody has a (familiar, to us) 13-3, 14-4, or better record, you've got 12 "not that valuable" wins conferring HFA on you, and therefore a significant advantage heading into the playoffs.

Additionally, if you beat Cleveland on week 3 by a field goal, you might have screamed at the top of your lungs at everybody who'll listen and several who won't, "THIS WIN HAS NO VALUE!" ("I mean, except it could determine the outcome of the season. Other than that, nahhhh.")

Just combining a few of the meanings here.

Any value that we place on regular season wins, division wins, etc., applies to an early-season game equally as to the late-season game, during which the stakes are known.

Granted, AFTER HFA is clinched, you can find yourself in a position in which another win will not change your chances. Interestingly, over the years, BB has often still operated on the premise that you field your real team every game in such late season games. That might just be a matter of keeping competitive regardless of outside declarations of "meaninglessness."

I doubt that by the end of this season, regular season wins will end up being meaningless. Even if they do, however, the early games are necessary to create such a state of affairs, so the logic does not extend backward to this game... in which a W is definitely a W.

That said, it's also a signpost of sorts. It tells us where we are now... not the juggernaut, a 4-2 team that's won close games, warts and all. If that changes, I'm sure we'll all be happier.

 

[A Defiant Goose]

The only difference in value comes in the form of tiebreakers. Meaning beating Miami is much more valuable than beating Atlanta

 

[mosi]

I love Slater. When I die, I want him to lead a cheer at my funeral. I think he would make even me get up out of my grave and cheer .

 

[Tony2046]

Face guarding isn't a penalty. However, Gronk was interfered with physically by contact on that play..

Is there a legal body guarding rule?

 

[Angelpats]

Is there a legal body guarding rule?

I'm surprised they called the first one which was less obvious but if you have been payimg attention this season Gronk gets held and interfered with quite often with no calls.

 

[mosi]

Is there a legal body guarding rule?

Ref to Gronk: Gee whats that in your front pocket.

Gronk to Ref: That would be their defensive back.