X's & O's Hou@NE -- REWATCH Thread

[luuked]

BTW: I noticed clear examples of communication errors + scheme errors both in the front 7 and in the secondary. During one particular play (I can't remember the play# atm) McCourty can clearly be seen coaching up a DB after a breakdown.

There was another one between Gilmore and Jonathan Jones when a misunderstanding between the two of them led to a 3rd down conversion by Griffin (?). You can see them clearly talking for a bit right afterwards.

 

[luuked]

All talented players benefit from a few good bounces and calls throughout their careers. Nothin' wrong with that.

True, but I think it is something to keep in mind so you dont get too lost in that false narrative that BoB should have gone on it on fourth down instead of taking the FG. He bet on his defense to stop the Pats from going all the way and with all the almost turnovers and the 3rd and longs he wasnt that far off. Yes, the result is the only thing that matters but it goes to show how small the margin really is.

 

[Tony2046]

@NE-VT

A little long but there is some good stuff in it. FYI: Down and distance + Score on the notes sheet. I think that adds relevance to what the defense was doing. Video Play #24 for example.

 

[NE-VT]

Agree with the assessment of the secondary, especially of Gilmore. Thus far, he isn't the upgrade from Ryan that was generally ass-umed…and he's 30% more expensive too.

Even if Gilmore ends up being a bit better than Ryan once Gilmore adjusts, I still think the move was questionable. Right now the linebackers not named Hightower are extremely suspect. I am sure these guys will improve somewhat. Yet I also fear some of the issues might just not be coachable; they might just lack athleticism.

I wonder if that 30% that was used on Gilmore would have been better spent on improved free agent linebackers. The marginal impact of that 30% might have been more on the weaker position group.

The devil's advocate to this would point to the shrinking role of LBs in the modern NFL. So many teams spend a ton of the game with 3 WRs, so nickel is the new base D. Maybe BB thinks that we will be OK in the long run with Van Noy as our passing down LB and Roberts as the running situation LB. Hightower is the critical piece to this.

 

[NE-VT]

FYI: @NE-VT - Your requested plays are uploading. Good stuff. Uploading usually takes about a half hour but a buffet of requests might take an hour or two or three....

Just wanted to note in a separate post that I added the complete series of plays of 146-152 which had a combination of Houston run and pass plays. I thought it would be interesting to see how the Defense responded to both during a complete series.

BTW: I noticed clear examples of communication errors + scheme errors both in the front 7 and in the secondary. During one particular play (I can't remember the play# atm) McCourty can clearly be seen coaching up a DB after a breakdown.

I watched it through once over. Thank you so much for this! I will give my input on it as best I can.

I like that idea of having the whole series. I will start on that.

 

[luuked]

Even if Gilmore ends up being a bit better than Ryan once Gilmore adjusts, I still think the move was questionable. Right now the linebackers not named Hightower are extremely suspect. I am sure these guys will improve somewhat. Yet I also fear some of the issues might just not be coachable; they might just lack athleticism.

I wonder if that 30% that was used on Gilmore would have been better spent on improved free agent linebackers. The marginal impact of that 30% might have been more on the weaker position group.

I honestly like reading your posts because they are coming from a position of insight and are very thoughtful. In this case, I dont fully understand why you are comparing Ryan and Gilmore.

Gilmore is the Butler replacement for when he leaves in FA next year (or via shocking in-season trade this year). The big strength of Ryan was his inside corner play which was enabled by his physicality, insane film study and great timing on corner blitzes. He never was more than competent whenever he had to play on the outside.

I agree that we are missing a player like Ryan especially because Cyrus never got a chance to get that job and Jonathan Jones is just not as good there but Ryan ended up making way too much money for the skillset he brings (i.e. inside corner).

 

[long distance]

KVN mic'd up here shows to me he has way to go to being comfortable, confident, commanding green dot.If the communication knot doesn't resolve quickly (discussing asignements while the ball is already being snapped etc) High will just have to come back to the middle..

 

[Oswlek]

I just want to say that if Tony and long distance - throw VT in there, too - did this review on their own blog somewhere.... I'd definitely make it a regular stop.

 

[PatsBoy12]

Even if Gilmore ends up being a bit better than Ryan once Gilmore adjusts, I still think the move was questionable. Right now the linebackers not named Hightower are extremely suspect. I am sure these guys will improve somewhat. Yet I also fear some of the issues might just not be coachable; they might just lack athleticism.

I wonder if that 30% that was used on Gilmore would have been better spent on improved free agent linebackers. The marginal impact of that 30% might have been more on the weaker position group.

The devil's advocate to this would point to the shrinking role of LBs in the modern NFL. So many teams spend a ton of the game with 3 WRs, so nickel is the new base D. Maybe BB thinks that we will be OK in the long run with Van Noy as our passing down LB and Roberts as the running situation LB. Hightower is the critical piece to this.

I don't remember, but who were some of the better LB's that the Pats failed to acquire? I don't recall hearing many big names. I'm really asking that question, not being a smart ass.

 

[PP2]

Even if Gilmore ends up being a bit better than Ryan once Gilmore adjusts, I still think the move was questionable. Right now the linebackers not named Hightower are extremely suspect. I am sure these guys will improve somewhat. Yet I also fear some of the issues might just not be coachable; they might just lack athleticism.

I wonder if that 30% that was used on Gilmore would have been better spent on improved free agent linebackers. The marginal impact of that 30% might have been more on the weaker position group.

The devil's advocate to this would point to the shrinking role of LBs in the modern NFL. So many teams spend a ton of the game with 3 WRs, so nickel is the new base D. Maybe BB thinks that we will be OK in the long run with Van Noy as our passing down LB and Roberts as the running situation LB. Hightower is the critical piece to this.

IMO, right now Gilmore is still thinking- e.g., the game hasn't slowed down for him yet. He's in a new place, new terminology, new teammates, and he's naturally quite afraid of making a mistake and letting the unit down so he's playing to "avoid losing," rather than playing to "win."

I'm going to give him the benefit of the doubt for at least half the season- see if he gets to the point where he stops thinking and just plays.

 

[long distance]

Short ST report:

Just some minor changes with two 2016 core ST guys coming back:

Grissom basically came in for Langi and was ok . Langi had some great plays last game but also a flag. Still disappointing to give a roster spot to Grissom and deactivate Langi.

Ebner took the central role in all units - other guys slightly re-shifted. This moves confirmed that Richards was taking some of Ebner's duties in previous games.

Amendola returned of course and the punt return game was on.

As part of these re-shiftments guys like KVN, Wise, D.Allen, McCourty (and Roberts before that) were relieved of their minor ST duties
___

Guys that showed up with good stops this week were Bolden, Ebner and again Bademosi and M.Flowers who are having very impactful start of NE ST career.

On big Amendola return early in the game there was great blocking by JJ, Ebner, Bademosi, King and M.Flowers.
___

It bears mentioning one early ST sequence that set NE back significantly and changed the momentum: On second punt return Amendola failed to catch (or fair catch) the punt and let the ball hit the ground at NE 30yd and roll all the way to NE 6yd. HOU gained 68 yards of field position on that play and put Brady under ton of pressure starting from 6yd line. After 3 and out Allen made a bad punt in the worst time for only 36yds and HOU started the drive from NE 44 for a TD.

So instead of TB starting at 30yd line and NE (at least) keeping field position advantage while leading 7:3 two bad ST plays saw Pats quickly falling behind 7:10..

 

[luuked]

Guys that showed up with good stops this week were Bolden, Ebner and again Bademosi and M.Flowers who are having very impactful start of NE ST career.

Ignored by many because **** ST (amirite ?) but the acquisition of Bademosi has been a vintage great BB move.

It bears mentioning one early ST sequence that set NE back significantly and changed the momentum: On second punt return Amendola failed to catch (or fair catch) the punt and let the ball hit the ground at NE 30yd and roll all the way to NE 6yd. HOU gained 68 yards of filed position on that play and put Brady under ton of pressure starting from 6yd line. After 3 and out Allen made a bad punt in the worst time for only 36yds and HOU started the drive from NE 44 for a TD.

That was one unfortuante sequence at every phase. The miscalculation by Dola to let it roll, Brady stumbling over Gillislee when dropping back which almost created a safety and then the bad punt. This and the pick/fumble 6 were essentially 14 gift wrapped points. Very reminiscent of the playoff game or the Ravens game last year. Bad plays better not come in a bunch..

 

[supafly]

I honestly like reading your posts because they are coming from a position of insight and are very thoughtful. In this case, I dont fully understand why you are comparing Ryan and Gilmore.

Gilmore is the Butler replacement for when he leaves in FA next year (or via shocking in-season trade this year). The big strength of Ryan was his inside corner play which was enabled by his physicality, insane film study and great timing on corner blitzes. He never was more than competent whenever he had to play on the outside.

I agree that we are missing a player like Ryan especially because Cyrus never got a chance to get that job and Jonathan Jones is just not as good there but Ryan ended up making way too much money for the skillset he brings (i.e. inside corner).

Since his name has been brought up, do you or anyone else know how Logan Ryan has looked through his first 3 games in Tennessee?

I fully agree with your assessment, by the way.

 

[Bcc66duece]

I don't remember, but who were some of the better LB's that the Pats failed to acquire? I don't recall hearing many big names. I'm really asking that question, not being a smart ass.

I really wanted Zack Brown and he really wasn't that expensive either. I think he signed for like 5 or 6 million for one year if I remember correctly.

 

[luuked]

Since his name has been brought up, do you or anyone else know how Logan Ryan has looked through his first 3 games in Tennessee?

I fully agree with your assessment, by the way.

I watched the Titans game against the Raiders in full because of Romo and the other two condensed and have not seen his name come up a lot. As a CB I suppose this is more likely to be a good thing than a bad thing. But obviously I didnt pay as much attention to those games as I would to a Pats game so I could be totally off.

Looking at some basic stats he seems to be on his way to make twice as many tackles as in 2016 with the Pats and already has forced a fumble. Sounds like a solid cog in the secondary to me.

 

[PatsBoy12]

I really wanted Zack Brown and he really wasn't that expensive either. I think he signed for like 5 or 6 million for one year if I remember correctly.

Oh yeah, I do remember him. Wasn't his time on the market really brief?

 

[Vatahala]

It wasn't a play but I loved it when they focused on a super intense Trey Flowers sitting on the bench late in the game.

It reminded me of Charles Jefferson.

 

[NE-VT]

Buffet 1 @ :01

< 2-9-HOU 23 (9:52) 4-D.Watson pass incomplete deep left to 10-D.Hopkins. PENALTY on NE-24-S.Gilmore, Defensive Pass Interference, 34 yards, enforced at HOU 23 - No Play. >

We are in our base 3-4 D where Chung has come down into the box as the 8th defender lined up against the TE. Pre snap this suggests we are in a M2M coverage or cover 3 IMO. Post snap it looks like cover 1 man.

The Texans run a double play action; fake handoff first, and then fake end around. This double play action comes up again in this game. The man coverage on both of the deep routes is pretty good. Since Watson throws it to the deep receiver, our FS is there to help even.

I have no idea why Gilmore commits a penalty here. Even if he could not track the ball, we were in a position to make an immediate tackle. Giving up a PI makes little sense. Make their WR make a play on it.


—

Buffet 2 @ :40

1-10-NE 43
(9:46) (Shotgun) 4-D.Watson pass short right to 89-S.Anderson to NE 29 for 14 yards (52-E.Roberts).


The Texans line up 4 wide, and the Patriots are in a 3-3 nickel with a single high safety. Post snap I think we are in cover 3 zone (4 underneath zones, both outside CBs dropping backing taking thirds of the field). Our LBs #52 (Roberts) and #53 Van Noy are the left and right middle 2 of 4 underneath zones.

The Houston receiver who makes the reception tan an out route cutting away from Roberts. I wonder if Roberts could/should have followed the receiver a bit tighter during this cut. There is no other receiver to Roberts’ immediate right side, and Roberts has Van Noy helping to that side as well. I feel like Roberts could afford to drift left a bit sooner, yet I am not sure. I wonder if BB and Patricia would agree on that.

It also seems like Roberts reaction once the ball is thrown was a bit slow.

—

Buffet 3 @ 1:14

1-10-NE 44
(2:31) 4-D.Watson pass short left to 13-B.Miller to NE 29 for 15 yards (53-K.Van Noy).


We are in a 4-2 nickel with 3 CBs lined up on their 3 WRs and 2 deep safeties. I think it is cover 3 based on how the outside CBs drop into deep thirds and how the SS comes up into a more shallow zone. Again the Texans the double play action threatening both the RB handoff and the end around.

This time our LBs responsible for the shallow zones bite bit hard on the double play action. This leaves space for the Texans’ receiver #13 streaking across the middle in the now unoccupied zone.

The coverage after the double play action was much better in Buffet 1. This could be a M2M vs. zone difference: it is not as big of a deal if a LB bites on play action but was responsible for the RB or FB involved in the play action. Conversely if it is zone there will be a huge hole in the coverage.

 

[NE-VT]

IMO, these next two plays were pretty bad by Van Noy.

Buffet 5 @ 2:39

(12:20) (Shotgun) 26-L.Miller left end to HOU 35 for 12 yards (32-D.McCourty, 59-M.Flowers).

We are in a 3-4 defense with the SS coming in to make a 8 man box. Von Noy is playing as the OLB on the tight end side. It was a running play that their RB broke to the outside toward Von Noy’s side. I imagine Van Noy had contain responsibility on this play. Not sure what Von Noy was attempting to do on this one. It almost looked like he was 2 gapping the TE (which is non traditional as far as I know), yet he had help from the inside from McCourty. Maybe Van Noy thought it was another play action? Not a good look.

—

Buffet 6 @ 3:19

1-10-HOU 35
(11:48) (Shotgun) 26-L.Miller up the middle to HOU 38 for 3 yards (90-M.Brown, 52-E.Roberts).

This time Van Noy fails to pick up on the play action fast enough. It looks like we are in cover 3, and Van Noy fails to drop into he sideline zone in time. Watson again sees this hole in the zone and takes advantage.

 

[luuked]

Buffet 2 @ :40

1-10-NE 43
(9:46) (Shotgun) 4-D.Watson pass short right to 89-S.Anderson to NE 29 for 14 yards (52-E.Roberts).


The Texans line up 4 wide, and the Patriots are in a 3-3 nickel with a single high safety. Post snap I think we are in cover 3 zone (4 underneath zones, both outside CBs dropping backing taking thirds of the field). Our LBs #52 (Roberts) and #53 Van Noy are the left and right middle 2 of 4 underneath zones.

The Houston receiver who makes the reception tan an out route cutting away from Roberts. I wonder if Roberts could/should have followed the receiver a bit tighter during this cut. There is no other receiver to Roberts’ immediate right side, and Roberts has Van Noy helping to that side as well. I feel like Roberts could afford to drift left a bit sooner, yet I am not sure. I wonder if BB and Patricia would agree on that.

It also seems like Roberts reaction once the ball is thrown was a bit slow.

That is Elandon Roberts in coverage in a nutshell.

He is a very instinctive player and can look amazing if he knows where he is going especially against the run. It will be a big make or break year for him based on whether he can improve even more in coverage or not. He has gotten better and it takes time for LBs to get comfortable in space on NFL level.. just look at how long Shazier has looked pretty pedestrian at it. But if he cant get at least solid at it I wouldnt be surprised if this year might be the end of the road for him here as run only LB are not particularly valuable. Especially those that sometimes overcommit on a run and get taken out of the play which opens space for a big play (like Roberts).