Bob Kraft's HOF Legacy

[Simpelton]

I'm struggling with Kraft for the same reasons everyone else is - he's been a model owner and helped build the Pats into the dominant team in the NFL, but the two times his team was bullied and unjustly punished by the league, he supported the league goons over the linchpins of his own organization.

When Hall Of Famer (ha!) Jerry Jones does the same on the Elliot case, maybe I'll be more lenient toward Kraft. But I'm betting you'll never see a press conference where Jones 'accepts' the suspension of his best player on flimsy evidence.

I would like to know why those of you who are so hung up on this feel that it's enough to counter every good thing Kraft has done for his franchise, the region and the people who have work the uniform ver the years.

Or if that isn't what you believe and if so feel free to clarify. Because it feels to me, and it sounds like I am not alone in this, that you guys are drawing a false equivalency here.

 

[PrairiePat]

It doesn't counter everything he's done here as a businessman. It just makes me think less of him as a person. Not sure the latter really matters for HOF consideration anyhow.

Hopefully he gets in at some point, and those of us with our little 'hang up' can golf clap for him and movc on.

 

[patfanken]

The fact that Jerry Jones is in the HOF and Robert Kraft isn't is an abomination. It's worse than a joke. For more than the 2 decades, Kraft has show the rest of the league exactly how to run a successful franchise both on the field and off it. He built a first class stadium with his own money and no PSL's. He developed the land around the Stadium into a shopping and entertainment destination for an entire region. He's turned a 174MM overpay into a $3.4BILLION franchise that is one of the most valuable franchises in the world.

Under his leadership he has taken professional football from the 4th ranked professional team to #1. He has made pro football important in a region who really didn't give a crap about the game. He has built the brand into a national and international favorite, where they routinely are in the top 5 in sales and fans outside their own geographic region.

He has led the TV committee to 2 outrageously good contracts. He was pivotal in there being a 2011 season. and much to our own consternation, was willing to put the league ahead of his own interests when the TWICE tried to legislate parity with 2 scam jobs.

Compare this to Jerry Jones, who has done very little that hasn't been in his own interest over the years. He has constantly tried to use his brand at the expense of the rest of the league. He cost local taxpayers hundreds of millions of dollars to build his own temple of excess. Not to mention let his own ego destroy a great team and send it into mediocrity for more than 2 decades.

The Cowboys brand was well established before Jones took over. Christ, he's located in a region where football is historically #1, 2, AND 3. It took him zero effort to build on what came before.

Nor has be left a single lasting benefit to the league that I can see, other than a cool party bus. How exactly is the NFL better or more successful because of Jerry Jones? It's a joke that he got in before any of the guys who have been mentioned this year. He hasn't come close to what Kraft has accomplished.

 

[Joker]

I would just like to pause here and remind you that you technically have that in common with some of the absolute worst, least effective, most incompetent businessmen that ever existed. If there is one thing I have learned in this world it's that education is no substitute for competence. Carrying on...



You are straining at gnats. What, he wasn't small-minded and petty enough to Goodell? That's your smoking gun?

Let's make one thing absolutely clear. Blaming Roger Goodell for deflategate is an example of killing the messenger. The real problem is the 32 and it always was. Goodell is just their stooge. We all need to keep that clear in our minds. The real problem was never Roger, it was Kraft's fellow owners.

And when it comes to doing anything to the 32 I believe we should be guided by a nugget of wisdom straight out f Machiavelli, which when translated to modern English reads thusly:

Never go out of your way to piss anyone off if you can't immediately get rid of them!

This is the wisdom Mr Kraft is operating on right now and it seems wise to me. He can't fire the 32, and going after Roger is useless Because none of this was Roger's idea.

So instead of making public displays of insipid contempt for the sole sake of being a petty little drama queen he gets back to business -- nothing is forgotten or forgiven but a good businessman does not necessarily wear his heart on his sleeve, and he has to work with these people for the indefinite future. Making enemies in the owners room for no productive reason is never good business no matter how satisfying it might be.

Spoken like a true Giant fan.You have to be an intergalactic simpleton to miss the FACT that Goodell shyt on the millions of New Englanders who follow the Patriots as fans. New Englanders that work and strive every day to support themselves and their families, give to their communities and make the six state region what it is and has long been...the best this country has to offer. Mara is the one pulling the strings, Goodell is his megalomaniacal Pinheadocchio. Too stupid to understand there is a price to pay when you contemptuously defecate on an entire population. Now FOAD you goddamned troll.

 

[Biffins]

Why is rebuilding Bridges with the people that run the league he owns a team in such terrible thing in your mind?

I do not understand the logic that because krafts team was inconvenienced or harmed by the deflategate Scandal that Robert Kraft needs to be in Total War mode henceforth and forever. That is no way to run a business.

So much for The North Remembers............



Seems like you forgot already. Took just a year.

 

[DarrylS]

The fact that Jerry Jones is in the HOF and Robert Kraft isn't is an abomination. It's worse than a joke. For more than the 2 decades, Kraft has show the rest of the league exactly how to run a successful franchise both on the field and off it. He built a first class stadium with his own money and no PSL's. He developed the land around the Stadium into a shopping and entertainment destination for an entire region. He's turned a 174MM overpay into a $3.4BILLION franchise that is one of the most valuable franchises in the world.

Under his leadership he has taken professional football from the 4th ranked professional team to #1. He has made pro football important in a region who really didn't give a crap about the game. He has built the brand into a national and international favorite, where they routinely are in the top 5 in sales and fans outside their own geographic region.

He has led the TV committee to 2 outrageously good contracts. He was pivotal in there being a 2011 season. and much to our own consternation, was willing to put the league ahead of his own interests when the TWICE tried to legislate parity with 2 scam jobs.

Compare this to Jerry Jones, who has done very little that hasn't been in his own interest over the years. He has constantly tried to use his brand at the expense of the rest of the league. He cost local taxpayers hundreds of millions of dollars to build his own temple of excess. Not to mention let his own ego destroy a great team and send it into mediocrity for more than 2 decades.

The Cowboys brand was well established before Jones took over. Christ, he's located in a region where football is historically #1, 2, AND 3. It took him zero effort to build on what came before.

Nor has be left a single lasting benefit to the league that I can see, other than a cool party bus. How exactly is the NFL better or more successful because of Jerry Jones? It's a joke that he got in before any of the guys who have been mentioned this year. He hasn't come close to what Kraft has accomplished.

As usual and expected very well articulated, not much to add to this... I am proud to be a Pats Fan, did Kraft not do some things as well as expected, yes, but in the big picture he saved and allowed this franchise to develop into one of the best.

 

[Simpelton]

So much for The North Remembers............



Seems like you forgot already. Took just a year.

You have no idea what you are talking about. It's one thing to "remember," it is quite another to deliberately shoot yourself in the foot in all future interactions with these people in a league where things get done by consent of the people you want Kraft to declare war on.

At the end of the day Robert Kraft is an owner not a fan he has to think like the owner of a franchise in the NFL and the NFL simply does not work the way you think it does. He could make grand gestures of childish petulance if he wanted to but that's no way to move forward and get the things done that he needs done in this League. We fans can afford to obsess on an issue like the Injustice of deflategate. Robert Kraft simply does not have that luxury if he wants to keep his franchise as strong as possible

Kraft had always being a forward-thinking owner and this is just another example of kraft looking forward and not back. Building Bridges rather than burning them is a better way to prevent the next deflategate. We're never going to get those picks back so preventing the next absurdly is the priority, and Robert Kraft understands this. And do that he needs many of the very people you want them to spit on.

Sometimes a leader needs to behave like a leader rather than behaving like a spoiled child that did not get his way. Kraft had not forgotten deflategate but he has to move past it and look forward to the next challenge, if he dwells on the past he gets stuck in the past and so do the New England Patriots.

 

[Kontradiction]

I would just like to pause here and remind you that you technically have that in common with some of the absolute worst, least effective, most incompetent businessmen that ever existed. If there is one thing I have learned in this world it's that education is no substitute for competence. Carrying on...

Yeah... no. No offense, but this is what people that don't have an education and a profession say because they can only apply this line of reasoning to whatever trade they work in. There is a difference between a trade and a profession and while you need both, there is simply no substitute for higher education in a profession like business. It's the same as any other profession, be it a lawyer, engineer, etc. Yes, competence is required but you still need to know how to do the job. This isn't like working in a call center where all you need to know are the policies and how to eat a **** sandwich from irate customers. That's a trade. Not a profession. So please do not lecture me on business. I've forgotten more about how to run a business than you will ever know, through both education and the fact that I run a successful and profitable one on a daily basis. But thanks for the lecture. How's the job search going?

You are straining at gnats. What, he wasn't small-minded and petty enough to Goodell? That's your smoking gun?

A lesson in reading comprehension may be in order because I've given a detailed list in a prior post, but (since Spygate)...

1. Backed Goodell's handling of the Redskins and Cowboys in the uncapped year.

2. Pushed through a horrible CBA that will likely lead to lockout when it expires while doing absolutely nothing to address the elephant in the room within it.

3. Publicly went to bat for Goodell's when he bungled numerous controversies.

4. Laid down and accepted the Spygate punishment without even the slightest hint of a fight, resulting in an inaccurate smear campaign that exists to this day against the team.

5. Laid down and accepted the Deflategate punishment for the reason (in his own words) being that it was "good for the 32". Brady is suspended 4 games and the team loses multiple draft picks.

This is all on top of numerous instances in which he's shown that he's still chummy with Goodell in spite of hollow words he's tossed out to appease fellow sheep like yourself. Words in which he doesn't even mention Goodell by name. He's proven numerous times that money means more to him than his team getting crapped on.

Let's make one thing absolutely clear. Blaming Roger Goodell for deflategate is an example of killing the messenger. The real problem is the 32 and it always was. Goodell is just their stooge. We all need to keep that clear in our minds. The real problem was never Roger, it was Kraft's fellow owners.

And when it comes to doing anything to the 32 I believe we should be guided by a nugget of wisdom straight out f Machiavelli, which when translated to modern English reads thusly:

Never go out of your way to piss anyone off if you can't immediately get rid of them!

This is the wisdom Mr Kraft is operating on right now and it seems wise to me. He can't fire the 32, and going after Roger is useless Because none of this was Roger's idea.

So instead of making public displays of insipid contempt for the sole sake of being a petty little drama queen he gets back to business -- nothing is forgotten or forgiven but a good businessman does not necessarily wear his heart on his sleeve, and he has to work with these people for the indefinite future. Making enemies in the owners room for no productive reason is never good business no matter how satisfying it might be.

You're showing some very clear cut bias here and it's affecting your reasoning on multiple levels. Sorry, but this is completely idiotic. You can't absolve Goodell, blame the owners, then absolve Kraft. That makes zero sense. Kraft is a part of the 32 that is behind Goodell and Kraft, on multiple occasions (as I've shown time and time again in this thread) has stood behind Goodell when Goodell was reeling. If you're going to blame the 32, then you need to include Kraft in that as well. If you're going to move the goal posts and shift the blame to Goodell later on in this thread, then Kraft also needs to be blamed since he's been a very verbal supporter of Goodell's on more than one occasion when he absolutely didn't need to be.

Anyway, it looks like the other two have been relegated to observer roles here. So it's just me and you, big boy. I'll turn the question back to you: Do you really believe that Kraft has never done anything to the detriment of the team, franchise, and league as a whole?

 

[shmessy]

Anyway, it looks like the other two have been relegated to observer roles here. So it's just me and you, big boy. I'll turn the question back to you: Do you really believe that Kraft has never done anything to the detriment of the team, franchise, and league as a whole?

I'll answer that, Kontra (and I have been an "observer" lately only because I am a harried businessman, myself).

As has been clearly articulated several times before - - Kraft did several things wrong. Guess what? Even the most perfect humanoids do several things wrong in their lifetimes.

To make a rough estimate for Kraft's ownership career would put it at 15% wrong and 85% right.

That is head and shoulders above ANY owner in the history of professional sports in America (save, perhaps Walter Brown, who didn't have the pleasure of a Commissioner investigating and punishing Red Auerbach's well-documented hijinks - we'll never know what ol' Walter would have done if that had happened).

If you want to consistently cry over the "spilt milk" and throw away the 7-course dinner, that is up to you.

Many of the rest of us will enjoy the **** out of the recent quarter of a century (perhaps because we suffered through the 35 years previous to it) and appreciate who bought the restaurant, built the dining room, set the goddamn table and hired the best chef on earth.

If you are too far blinded by your rage at the 15%, I can't help you.

.

 

[Kontradiction]

I'll answer that, Kontra (and I have been an "observer" lately only because I am a harried businessman, myself).

As has been clearly articulated several times before - - Kraft did several things wrong. Guess what? Even the most perfect humanoids do several things wrong in their lifetimes.

To make a rough estimate for Kraft's ownership career would put it at 15% wrong and 85% right.

That is head and shoulders above ANY owner in the history of professional sports in America (save, perhaps Walter Brown, who didn't have the pleasure of a Commissioner investigating and punishing Red Auerbach's well-documented hijinks - we'll never know what ol' Walter would have done if that had happened).

If you want to consistently cry over the "spilt milk" and throw away the 7-course dinner, that is up to you.

Many of the rest of us will enjoy the **** out of the recent quarter of a century (perhaps because we suffered through the 35 years previous to it) and appreciate who bought the restaurant, built the dining room, set the goddamn table and hired the best chef on earth.

If you are too far blinded by your rage at the 15%, I can't help you.

.

That percentage is mighty generous. Considering what Goodell and the 32 have done to the league, franchise, and team itself in the last 10 years, it's much higher than 15%. Kraft did some things right, the most of which is being smart enough to just get the hell out of Belichick's way. But he's also done his fair share of things wrong to the detriment of all three. Continued support of Goodell and the other 31 will just keep him going down that wayward path. And who is blinded? I'm probably one of the only people who is seeing things quite clearly in this thread. I don't root for the owner. The owners are scumbags, for the most part. I root for the team. And if you, like me, root for the team/brand, then it might help to realize that the owner himself has and will continue to do damage to it any time he puts "the good of the 32" above that brand.

 

[PrairiePat]

Kraft had always being a forward-thinking owner and this is just another example of kraft looking forward and not back. Building Bridges rather than burning them is a better way to prevent the next deflategate. We're never going to get those picks back so preventing the next absurdly is the priority, and Robert Kraft understands this. And do that he needs many of the very people you want them to spit on.

This was also his brilliant strategy after Spygate. How did sitting on his hands while the 'Cheatriots' narrative became an accepted truth help 'prevent the next absurdity'? It didn't. Yet he learned nothing from that, again capitulating to the League after an even greater absurdity in Deflategate.

The only reason that rhetoric has toned down in recent years has been the heroics of Malcolm Butler and Brady in SB49 and SB51. Kraft's backing of the 32 and the Omissioner has only fueled the arguments that the Pats are habitual offenders.

 

[Simpelton]

This was also his brilliant strategy after Spygate. How did sitting on his hands while the 'Cheatriots' narrative became an accepted truth help 'prevent the next absurdity'? It didn't. Yet he learned nothing from that, again capitulating to the League after an even greater absurdity in Deflategate.

The only reason that rhetoric has toned down in recent years has been the heroics of Malcolm Butler and Brady in SB49 and SB51. Kraft's backing of the 32 and the Omissioner has only fueled the arguments that the Pats are habitual offenders.

Only by the uninformed. Nobody can really control what the ignorant masses say.

The danger of taking a title for tat approach is that besides feeling good, it has nothing else to recommend it. All that holding the other owners' feet to the fire accomplishes is that everyone digs in deeper. If Kraft's success already has him out on an island the last thing he needs is to force 31 of the richest and most powerful men in America to double down on him.

Deflategate happened because Kraft didn't have enough pull in the room to stop it before it went public... So your solution is for Kraft to isolate himself from the room even further? The power to protect this franchise lies in finding enough allies to stop petulant butthurt owners feeling they can do whatever they want out of spite. That isn't accomplished by ruffling the feathers of the good ole boy network... If the network is already pulling strings against you that makes it all the more important to find allies on the inside.

This is a situation where you don't have a choice between confrontation and rapprochement. confrontation is a false option that removes any ability you might have to prevent the next scheme. If you didn't have the support to block that one the last thing you need to be doing is stepping on toes in the owners' room.

Roman history is full of tragic tales of what happens to oligarchs that overplay their hands and isolate themselves out of spite or pride or a conviction that their "time" had "come." So is Greek and Japanese and everything else that was ever run by oligarchy. I doubt Kraft will be knifed to death in the street in broad daylight but the NFL is still run like an oligarchy, so the same principle applies. Never isolate yourself to make a point, even if you get your way, that is the path to eternal failure and impotence.

 

[Joker]

Your bombast and pomposity know no limits. Log off and chop both your hands off.

 

[DarrylS]

I'll answer that, Kontra (and I have been an "observer" lately only because I am a harried businessman, myself).

As has been clearly articulated several times before - - Kraft did several things wrong. Guess what? Even the most perfect humanoids do several things wrong in their lifetimes.

To make a rough estimate for Kraft's ownership career would put it at 15% wrong and 85% right.

That is head and shoulders above ANY owner in the history of professional sports in America (save, perhaps Walter Brown, who didn't have the pleasure of a Commissioner investigating and punishing Red Auerbach's well-documented hijinks - we'll never know what ol' Walter would have done if that had happened).

If you want to consistently cry over the "spilt milk" and throw away the 7-course dinner, that is up to you.

Many of the rest of us will enjoy the **** out of the recent quarter of a century (perhaps because we suffered through the 35 years previous to it) and appreciate who bought the restaurant, built the dining room, set the goddamn table and hired the best chef on earth.

If you are too far blinded by your rage at the 15%, I can't help you.
.

Would like to see some sort of study of feelings about Kraft vs. how long a supporter/detractor has been a Pats Fan.. I am willing to bet that old timers who had the unfortunate experience of wallowing in the crap for all those years are more forgiving vs. younger fans who have had a better Pats Fan experience may have less tolerance..

If you are batting .850 in the business world, as you suggest, you are doing pretty damned good...

The problem is the power that the owners have, and how that power is perpetuated by Goodell and his loyal inner circle, who at the end of the day are concerned about the bottom line.. the fact that the NFL CBA is worth crap perpetuates their power. Folks gotta remember that a CBA is approved by both parties, and it not a one sided affair.

 

[Kontradiction]

Would like to see some sort of study of feelings about Kraft vs. how long a supporter/detractor has been a Pats Fan.. I am willing to bet that old timers who had the unfortunate experience of wallowing in the crap for all those years are more forgiving vs. younger fans who have had a better Pats Fan experience may have less tolerance..

If you are batting .850 in the business world, as you suggest, you are doing pretty damned good...

The problem is the power that the owners have, and how that power is perpetuated by Goodell and his loyal inner circle, who at the end of the day are concerned about the bottom line.. the fact that the NFL CBA is worth crap perpetuates their power. Folks gotta remember that a CBA is approved by both parties, and it not a one sided affair.

Except the problem is that shmessy's percentages, as has been pointed out, are generous. Football as a whole has changed drastically in the last 10 years... and not for the better. Kraft's support of that process and the man who is spearheading that process make Kraft one to blame. This is on top of everything else I've listed. The problem with maybe some of the old timers, if the "issue" is what you say it is, is that they've been so blinded by something good (and something that Kraft had little to do with outside of simply getting out of the way) that they're going to make efforts to excuse him for anything. And this is all while freely admitting that he's made some very massive errors in judgement to the detriment of the league, franchise, and team itself.

 

[PrairiePat]

Would like to see some sort of study of feelings about Kraft vs. how long a supporter/detractor has been a Pats Fan.. I am willing to bet that old timers who had the unfortunate experience of wallowing in the crap for all those years are more forgiving vs. younger fans who have had a better Pats Fan experience may have less tolerance..

Well you'd lose that bet, at least in my case. I went to games at Schaefer Stadium in the 70's. I appreciate what Kraft has done to help bring the Pats franchise up to the level it's at today, as I'm sure everyone does who follows the team. When it comes to running the business of the Patriots, I think he's done (and continues to do) an outstanding job.

This is a discussion about putting him in the HOF. It's fair to discuss both sides of his legacy, don't you think? This is a guy who came from those metal bleachers and shared the values of the fans. But today he's the biggest supporter of the fans' public enemy #1. Don't you see an issue there?

 

[ohiopatsfan]

While I feel Kraft is deserving of a spot in the HOF, I think it will not be a slam dunk. Jealousy over the Pats' s continued success will make it difficult. I would also ditto Belichick and Brady for the same reason.

 

[Kontradiction]

While I feel Kraft is deserving of a spot in the HOF, I think it will not be a slam dunk. Jealousy over the Pats' s continued success will make it difficult. I would also ditto Belichick and Brady for the same reason.

You lost me on the last sentence. Both will get in on their first year of eligibility. Kraft? Not so much.

 

[FCB02062]

No doubt his Tebucky Jones stopwatch will be part of the Kraft HOF exhibit, along with a CMGI field napkin, a love letter from Tom Finneran, and Bill Parcells' grocery list....

 

[shmessy]

No doubt his Tebucky Jones stopwatch will be part of the Kraft HOF exhibit, along with a CMGI field napkin, a love letter from Tom Finneran, and Bill Parcells' grocery list....

He stayed loyal when it was 28-3.

.