Stephen Gostkowski

[1960Pats]

"more accurate and stronger." That's a deflection (no one, at least not I, is questioning Gostkowski's skill set...and, as I said in another post above, as long as Belichick and Judge believe in him...well, that's good enough for me).

But.

Vinatieri made what is universally regarded as the greatest kick under pressure in the history of the NFL into the teeth of a blizzard from 45 yards to tie the "Tuck" game and then made another tough kick under the same conditions from 23 yards to win it.

Vinatieri won SB XXXVI with the clock reading 0:00 when his kick cleared the uprights from 48 yards. No other K in the history of the NFL had ever done so before and the feat has been repeated only once, or just about, since that day (see below).

Vinatieiri won SB XXXVIII with the clock reading 0:04 (or so).

#4 was rightly cut the slack he had earned in other cases where he missed important kicks. In fact, I'd argue that he had a lot more left in the bank. And, he will be in Canton five years after he retires.

The Snow Bowl kick was indeed the greatest kick in NYFL history. The rest of the kicks AV made could have been made by most kickers. Same for his misses.

Vinatieri happened to be the kicker that the Pats put into position to get the winning kick in a few big games. He also had a 5 chip shot game that won for PEDton and Indy, the team who's uniform he'll be wearing when he enters the hof.

It stands to reason that if Gost is more accurate and stronger, then he's a better kicker than AV. The difference is that the Pats haven't given Gost as many chances as they gave AV. The numbers don't lie.

 

[PatsFanSince74]

The Snow Bowl kick was indeed the greatest kick in NYFL history. The rest of the kicks AV made could have been made by most kickers. Same for his misses.

Vinatieri happened to be the kicker that the Pats put into position to get the winning kick in a few big games. He also had a 5 chip shot game that won for PEDton and Indy, the team who's uniform he'll be wearing when he enters the hof.

It stands to reason that if Gost is more accurate and stronger, then he's a better kicker than AV. The difference is that the Pats haven't given Gost as many chances as they gave AV. The numbers don't lie.

No arguing comparative statistics, since they are "real." One can draw whatever conclusions one wants about the superior kicker based on them. I choose #4 for his body of work both statistically and on the biggest stages. You are free to disagree...gotta love that First Amendment!

As for getting the tying and winning kicks in the AFC Championship Game (Snow Bowl) and with time expiring in two SB's, we're into the realm of the unknowable since Gostkowski has never had to make kicks under those circumstances...so, I guess one can think whatever one might want to think about what he would have done had he been presented with such an opportunity.

 

[jbb9s]

the only rub i have with ghost is anecdotally i think his onsides kicks suck.

he gets less practice than anyone in the history of the league(1/yr)

 

[PatsFanInVa]

No kicker cliff? Come on, it's the offseason. Somebody bring the kicker cliff.

 

[Brit patriot]

It is a fact that if we had failed on a two point conversion, huge conversations would be taking place as missed extra points in games against Denver and Atlanta would have killed us.

We won thankfully, so it isn't a conversation we are having. Bill will know Ghost's value. Remember, we look at most of the kickers around the league and realise they are useless. What do you want, to bring Mike Nugent in? Ghost even at his worst is an above average kicker, and at his best is elite. It will take a good guy to replace him, but we all know the day Bill thinks he can get better value elsewhere, we wave goodbye.

 

[zoostation]

Ouch, scary thought. Don't forget though....if Amendola doesn't convert the 2 point conversion the Pats would have had the ball 1/2 distance for another attempt as I believe Atlanta was offsides on that play. But I get the point of your question and I cringe just thinking about it.

 

[borg]

No arguing comparative statistics, since they are "real." One can draw whatever conclusions one wants about the superior kicker based on them. I choose #4 for his body of work both statistically and on the biggest stages. You are free to disagree...gotta love that First Amendment!

As for getting the tying and winning kicks in the AFC Championship Game (Snow Bowl) and with time expiring in two SB's, we're into the realm of the unknowable since Gostkowski has never had to make kicks under those circumstances...so, I guess one can think whatever one might want to think about what he would have done had he been presented with such an opportunity.

My 2 cents:
I always felt BB managed/limited Ghost's kicks early in his career and statistics show Ghost averaged 9 less FG attempts per year in the first two years of his career.

Some interesting stats:
AV averaged 1.6 FG attempts each year over 50 yds while BB was his coach (regular season 2000-06)
Ghost averaged 1.43 in his 1st 7 years
Ghost averaged 4.0 in his last 4 years

More interesting:
AV averaged 30.8 FG attempts under BB converting 83%
Ghost averaged 33.1 FG attempts in 10.5 years (missed 8 games) converting 87%

Playoffs:
AV was 20/25 under BB ...80%
Ghost 31/33 ...93%

Extra points (regular season)
AV missed 3 EPs under BB
Ghost missed 1 EP (rookie season) prior to rule change, 3 after rule change 98/101 (97%)

Extra Points (playoffs)
AV perfect
Ghost perfect prior to rule change, 10/13 since rule change 77%

Note: since 2015 when EP distance was pushed back, Ghost was 11/11 in FGs in playoffs but only 10/13 in EPs in same playoff games.

Conclusion: Statistically Ghost is a superior kicker compared to AV but lacks signature kicks that define him. Unfairly IMO, his only significant blip, playoff EPs under the new rules, has begun to redefine him despite his near perfection as a playoff FG kicker. Not to be ignored, Ghost is arguably the most valuable kickoff specialist in the NFL who can place the ball exactly where his coaches want the ball to land, whether it's through the end zone or pinned in the corner at the 2 yard line.

Question: looking at the complete package, who does it better? Ghost's ability to add hang time while pinpointing the ball's placement is a skill that is unmatched in this league IMO and easily sets him apart from his peers. His 2017 Super Bowl kickoffs were brilliant and crucial... and history may look upon these as Ghost's career defining signature kicks. They may not count on the scoreboard but his coaches know their real value....sterling silver

 

[PatsFanSince74]

My 2 cents:
I always felt BB managed/limited Ghost's kicks early in his career and statistics show Ghost averaged 9 less FG attempts per year in the first two years of his career.

Some interesting stats:
AV averaged 1.6 FG attempts each year over 50 yds while BB was his coach (regular season 2000-06)
Ghost averaged 1.43 in his 1st 7 years
Ghost averaged 4.0 in his last 4 years

More interesting:
AV averaged 30.8 FG attempts under BB converting 83%
Ghost averaged 33.1 FG attempts in 10.5 years (missed 8 games) converting 87%

Playoffs:
AV was 20/25 under BB ...80%
Ghost 31/33 ...93%

Extra points (regular season)
AV missed 3 EPs under BB
Ghost missed 1 EP (rookie season) prior to rule change, 3 after rule change 98/101 (97%)

Extra Points (playoffs)
AV perfect
Ghost perfect prior to rule change, 10/13 since rule change 77%

Note: since 2015 when EP distance was pushed back, Ghost was 11/11 in FGs in playoffs but only 10/13 in EPs in same playoff games.

Conclusion: Statistically Ghost is a superior kicker compared to AV but lacks signature kicks that define him. Unfairly IMO, his only significant blip, playoff EPs under the new rules, has begun to redefine him despite his near perfection as a playoff FG kicker. Not to be ignored, Ghost is arguably the most valuable kickoff specialist in the NFL who can place the ball exactly where his coaches want the ball to land, whether it's through the end zone or pinned in the corner at the 2 yard line.

Question: looking at the complete package, who does it better? Ghost's ability to add hang time while pinpointing the ball's placement is a skill that is unmatched in this league IMO and easily sets him apart from his peers. His 2017 Super Bowl kickoffs were brilliant and crucial... and history may look upon these as Ghost's career defining signature kicks. They may not count on the scoreboard but his coaches know their real value....sterling silver

Thanks. Those are great stats. I think it will take time for NFL statisticians to put the full, deserved value on KO's that pin opponents deep after the rule change. In fact, I hope that they start keeping an official stat about "Number of Kickoffs Pinning the opponent behind their own 15 (or 10) yard line." It could as you say, make the value of a Gostkowski more transparent...who knows, maybe even "gold" instead of "sterling silver," which tarnishes.

And, to be clear, I stated at least twice in this thread that I am definitely not among those who want to kick Gostkowski to the side of the road and that as long as Belichick and Judge stand by him, I just have to deal with whatever I might feel when he lines up in a big situation. That's my problem, not his.

Beyond that, this is a discussion that will go on for a long time.

Until Brady slammed the door shut on the discussion in XLIX and then nailed it shut in February, there were still those who saw Peyton's Career Passing Yards, Completions and TD's as an argument (which I did NOT buy) for his superiority over Brady. But, in the end, it was those pesky things called Championships and Rings that set #12 apart.

In the case of #4, his pressure kicks to tie and win Championship games will, in my opinion, always set him apart from every kicker in the history of the League, including Gostkowski (I've read that he doesn't like being called "Ghost").

But, as I said in my earlier post, this is a subject about which knowledgeable people can (and will) disagree.

Thanks for the information!

 

[ctpatsfan77]

Ouch, scary thought. Don't forget though....if Amendola doesn't convert the 2 point conversion the Pats would have had the ball 1/2 distance for another attempt as I believe Atlanta was offsides on that play. But I get the point of your question and I cringe just thinking about it.

They were, and badly so.

 

[borg]

It could as you say, make the value of a Gostkowski more transparent...who knows, maybe even "gold" instead of "sterling silver," which tarnishes.

The prize for winning the Super Bowl is seven pounds of sterling silver, handcrafted by jewelry icon Tiffany.

The Making of Tiffany's Super Bowl Trophy

I was trying to be subtle

 

[PatsFanSince74]

The prize for winning the Super Bowl is seven pounds of sterling silver, handcrafted by jewelry icon Tiffany.

The Making of Tiffany's Super Bowl Trophy

I was trying to be subtle

I'm usually not very subtle before lunch.
Thanks.