Kraft: zero DV tolerance - no Mixon

[Simpelton]

Ok, another nice little gathering here, eh Kontra?

1. Mixon is wrong for doing what he did. He was not cornered and in a situation where his only option was to KO this chick. Just walk away,

That was the ideal solution yes. I just can't accept that all the onus should be on Mixon when it was Molitor that crossed the line first. He's partially responsible for what happened, but so is Molitor. Like I said, I agree with the plea bargain, based on Mixon's disproportionate use of force, but not with Molitor walking away with her own role in what happened unquestioned and 100% of the onus on Mixon. I think that's unfair and absurd and based far too much on gender bias rather than justice.

 

[Nehalem]

SPIN SPIN SPIN

When I say push I don't mean a push with force behind it. He could easily lightly brushed her aside and walked away.

Sounds like what you are saying is that women should be free to hit a man

This would seem to be both immoral. As well as horrible advice. Since when a a woman runs into a man who doesn't follow your rules she is likely to get hurt. Case in point.

Oh give me a f**cking break. If he wanted to leave he could have

Watch the video again. He could have easily kept walking away but he decided to be a tough guy and turn around and square up before she ever pushed him

He turned around when she got up. Given the way she behaved seems like a smart move. Unless you are suggesting he should have let her sucker punch him or something.

Idiot had no problem running away after he knocked her out yet i'm supposed to believe he couldn't walk away when she pushed him.

What else was he suppose to do? Stay there and keep wailing on her?

 

[Galeb]

I just don't get the mentality that women are somehow sacred. I understand that it was a thing back when women were not equal and their rights were repressed so much that some protection under the law and culture were necessary, but this is the 21st freaking century, women can handle their own s***. And if one wants to lay hands on me, I back off, issue a warning, and she keeps coming, I'm probably going to do something physical about it. And then still press charges because I'd be 100% within my rights to do so.

Welcome to the 21st century ladies, you've earned your equality, good job, so happy for you. Time for it to cut both ways.

Women are sacred. They are the vessels through which we all come into this world. That certainly doesn't give them the right to assault anyone, but when you are athletic and drastically outweigh them, you can certainly choose less violent options than knocking them out that would be just as effective.

 

[Nehalem]

Women are sacred. They are the vessels through which we all come into this world. That certainly doesn't give them the right to assault anyone, but when you are athletic and drastically outweigh them, you can certainly choose less violent options than knocking them out that would be just as effective.

Part of where I have to disagree is with the idea that he "chose" to knock her out.

Punching her seems more like a split second reaction to her slapping him in the face.

Its easy to say he should have just shoved her back at 1/4 power when you are calmly sitting behind your keyboard. And another when you are in a heated argument with someone that has now escalated to them shoving and slapping you.

 

[Kontradiction]

Part of where I have to disagree is with the idea that he "chose" to knock her out.

Punching her seems more like a split second reaction to her slapping him in the face.

Its easy to say he should have just shoved her back at 1/4 power when you are calmly sitting behind your keyboard. And another when you are in a heated argument with someone that has now escalated to them shoving and slapping you.

I've been in a violent relationship before where I'd frequently get punched or sucker punched in the face, sometimes multiple times, whenever we'd fight. I never once punched her. The biggest show of force I ever did was to throw her back against the couch and hold her down while screaming, "are you going to stop now?". Mixon had other options than unloading on her.

 

[Galeb]

Part of where I have to disagree is with the idea that he "chose" to knock her out.

Punching her seems more like a split second reaction to her slapping him in the face.

Its easy to say he should have just shoved her back at 1/4 power when you are calmly sitting behind your keyboard. And another when you are in a heated argument with someone that has now escalated to them shoving and slapping you.

I've had to restrain attacking females before (psycho gf when I was about 18). Never once did I strike one. Matter of fact, I subdued males who struck me first instead of harming them.

 

[Nehalem]

I've been in a violent relationship before where I'd frequently get punched or sucker punched in the face, sometimes multiple times, whenever we'd fight. I never once punched her. The biggest show of force I ever did was to throw her back against the couch and hold her down while screaming, "are you going to stop now?". Mixon had other options than unloading on her.

I've had to restrain attacking females before (psycho gf when I was about 18). Never once did I strike one. Matter of fact, I subdued males who struck me first instead of harming them.

And that is probably because you guys, like me, were conditioned from childhood to not be violent. So your reaction to be hitting is more measured than Mixon.

 

[Simpelton]

I've been in a violent relationship before where I'd frequently get punched or sucker punched in the face, sometimes multiple times, whenever we'd fight. I never once punched her. The biggest show of force I ever did was to throw her back against the couch and hold her down while screaming, "are you going to stop now?". Mixon had other options than unloading on her.

Yes he did. That's why the plea bargain was fair if not lenient. That's why he eats some consequences out of this. The problem is that he's not the only one that should have suffered consequences. Putting 100% of the consequences on Mixon doesn't fit the facts. And calling him a woman beater because a woman attacked him and he overreacted is a little bit absurd.

I'd have been right with you guys in the rush to judgment if

1: there had been other incidents

or

2: Mixon had continued the attack either verbally or physically after Molitor was down.

Either of those would have been more than enough. In the absence of either, I see someone who counterattacked in the heat of the moment and stopped immediately when they realized the person attacking them wouldn't continue to be a problem (and I use the term "person" deliberately, to remove inappropriate gender biases that I still feel do not belong in this conversation).

The only issue I have with Mixon's reaction was excessive force. For that, a plea bargain, probation and community service are appropriate. Molitor is partially responsible for her own injuries and should have been asked some hard questions herself about her role in the alteraction, and and should take her share of the blame for what happened.

 

[Galeb]

And that is probably because you guys, like me, were conditioned from childhood to not be violent. So your reaction to be hitting is more measured than Mixon.

My conditioning was mixed. I had some violent friends. I understand how powerful our conditioning is, but ultimately we are still responsible for our own actions. We always have choice, whether we acknowledge it or not.

 

[Simpelton]

My conditioning was mixed. I had some violent friends. I understand how powerful our conditioning is, but ultimately we are still responsible for our own actions. We always have choice, whether we acknowledge it or not.

Yep, and Mixon made a bad choice. I don't think anyone's saying he couldn't have handled it better. What I'm saying is that it's one of the most hypocritical parts of our current culture that a woman can whale away on a man all day long and a man is expected to just take it, and the crowd that's usually all in favor of gender equality reacts with a deafening silence.

A lot of the men's rights stuff out there is pure nonsense, this is one area that isn't. Female on male domestic battery is just as wrong as the other way around and isn't taken nearly as seriously. Remember I did mention upthread that I have a brother who ran afoul of this kind of nonsense and he chose to react the "right" way and it practically ruined his life. That's one of the reasons this resonates so much for me.

KontradictioN by his own description is a victim of domestic battery, but feels like he can puff out his chest and act morally superior because he chose not to do anything about it -- that's ****ed up. It's ****ed up what happens to men in some relationships and they just let it happen for whatever reason. It's just as ****ed up as the woman crawling back to an abusive husband or boyfriend, but at least that gets the correct level of legal and social pressure against it, while all a man in the same situation gets is laughed at.

 

[XLIX]

Oh yes, you're right, my mistake. Witnesses suggest that it was in fact the young gay man who threw the racial epithet, and Molitor backed him up verbally when Mixon took exception to that and returned fire for fire.

Now you're just lying. Not a single witness corroborated that accusation.

You possess the dangerous combination of a warped point of view plus a complete lack of knowledge of the fundamental facts of the case. But hey, whatever.... maybe someday someone will treat your daughter or some other woman in your life the way Mixon treated that woman, you know being that he was so justified in his behavior....

 

[Simpelton]

Of course I'm the one with the warped point of view. I'm the one arguing against the witch hunt, trying to push for an unbiased judgment of a person society has already condemned, and taking a stand against a societal assumption that has needed a rethink for at least the last 50 years. All of those things make my perspective warped, I'll buy that. It takes a strange frame of mind to buck against groupthink as consistently as I do, personally I think this would be a much less sick society if everyone's perspective was similarly warped.

 

[XLIX]

Of course I'm the one with the warped point of view. I'm the one arguing against the witch hunt, trying to push for an unbiased judgment of a person society has already condemned, and taking a stand against a societal assumption that has needed a rethink for at least the last 50 years.

Yes, calling criticism of a guy who punched a woman so hard it knocked her head into a table and the whole thing broke 4 bones in her face a "witch hunt" is a warped perspective.

Not to mention, you clearly don't know the first about the law or the facts of this case.

 

[XLIX]

Of course I'm the one with the warped point of view. I'm the one arguing against the witch hunt, trying to push for an unbiased judgment of a person society has already condemned, and taking a stand against a societal assumption that has needed a rethink for at least the last 50 years.

Yes, calling criticism of a guy who punched a woman so hard it knocked her head into a table and the whole thing broke 4 bones in her face a "witch hunt" is a warped perspective.

Not to mention, you clearly don't know the first about the law or the facts of this case.

 

[TB_Helmet]

Yep, and Mixon made a bad choice. I don't think anyone's saying he couldn't have handled it better. What I'm saying is that it's one of the most hypocritical parts of our current culture that a woman can whale away on a man all day long and a man is expected to just take it, and the crowd that's usually all in favor of gender equality reacts with a deafening silence.

A lot of the men's rights stuff out there is pure nonsense, this is one area that isn't. Female on male domestic battery is just as wrong as the other way around and isn't taken nearly as seriously. Remember I did mention upthread that I have a brother who ran afoul of this kind of nonsense and he chose to react the "right" way and it practically ruined his life. That's one of the reasons this resonates so much for me.

KontradictioN by his own description is a victim of domestic battery, but feels like he can puff out his chest and act morally superior because he chose not to do anything about it -- that's ****ed up. It's ****ed up what happens to men in some relationships and they just let it happen for whatever reason. It's just as ****ed up as the woman crawling back to an abusive husband or boyfriend, but at least that gets the correct level of legal and social pressure against it, while all a man in the same situation gets is laughed at.

Dude why are you choosing this corner to die on? You've written pages of text in here. Maybe go review some game film or something. You have made your point very clear, sort of.

 

[Kontradiction]

Yes he did. That's why the plea bargain was fair if not lenient. That's why he eats some consequences out of this. The problem is that he's not the only one that should have suffered consequences. Putting 100% of the consequences on Mixon doesn't fit the facts. And calling him a woman beater because a woman attacked him and he overreacted is a little bit absurd.

I'd have been right with you guys in the rush to judgment if

1: there had been other incidents

or

2: Mixon had continued the attack either verbally or physically after Molitor was down.

Either of those would have been more than enough. In the absence of either, I see someone who counterattacked in the heat of the moment and stopped immediately when they realized the person attacking them wouldn't continue to be a problem (and I use the term "person" deliberately, to remove inappropriate gender biases that I still feel do not belong in this conversation).

The only issue I have with Mixon's reaction was excessive force. For that, a plea bargain, probation and community service are appropriate. Molitor is partially responsible for her own injuries and should have been asked some hard questions herself about her role in the alteraction, and and should take her share of the blame for what happened.

Yeah, you're absolutely right. He had zero other choice but to unload a right cross into her jaw with force. He couldn't have grabbed her, held her down, pushed her, or any of that. Nope. The only choice, the ONLY one, was a haymaker.

You seem to be constructing some sort of flimsy straw man here that people are excusing Moliter. That's not the case. At least not from what I've seen. She had no excuse to swing. But, that said, Mixon had other choices besides swinging himself. Let's not act as if that was it. Instead of digging your heels in and getting buried on this, first recognize the straw man you're constructing and try to look at it from another POV because tossing out post after post rife with logical fallacies is not a wise choice.

 

[Simpelton]

Yeah, you're absolutely right. He had zero other choice but to unload a right cross into her jaw with force. He couldn't have grabbed her, held her down, pushed her, or any of that. Nope. The only choice, the ONLY one, was a haymaker.

You seem to be constructing some sort of flimsy straw man here that people are excusing Moliter. That's not the case. At least not from what I've seen. She had no excuse to swing. But, that said, Mixon had other choices besides swinging himself. Let's not act as if that was it. Instead of digging your heels in and getting buried on this, first recognize the straw man you're constructing and try to look at it from another POV because tossing out post after post rife with logical fallacies is not a wise choice.

Do you realize that's the first time I've seen one of the guys condemning Mixon actually admit that Molitor did something wrong? Maybe someone else did and I didn't see it.

 

[Galeb]

Yep, and Mixon made a bad choice. I don't think anyone's saying he couldn't have handled it better. What I'm saying is that it's one of the most hypocritical parts of our current culture that a woman can whale away on a man all day long and a man is expected to just take it, and the crowd that's usually all in favor of gender equality reacts with a deafening silence.

A lot of the men's rights stuff out there is pure nonsense, this is one area that isn't. Female on male domestic battery is just as wrong as the other way around and isn't taken nearly as seriously. Remember I did mention upthread that I have a brother who ran afoul of this kind of nonsense and he chose to react the "right" way and it practically ruined his life. That's one of the reasons this resonates so much for me.

KontradictioN by his own description is a victim of domestic battery, but feels like he can puff out his chest and act morally superior because he chose not to do anything about it -- that's ****ed up. It's ****ed up what happens to men in some relationships and they just let it happen for whatever reason. It's just as ****ed up as the woman crawling back to an abusive husband or boyfriend, but at least that gets the correct level of legal and social pressure against it, while all a man in the same situation gets is laughed at.

Had you stated it this way originally, I don't think so many would be disagreeing with you.

 

[Simpelton]

I'm not always good at translating my gut takes into words, one of my many failings.

 

[patfanken]

Yeah, you're absolutely right. He had zero other choice but to unload a right cross into her jaw with force. He couldn't have grabbed her, held her down, pushed her, or any of that. Nope. The only choice, the ONLY one, was a haymaker.

You seem to be constructing some sort of flimsy straw man here that people are excusing Moliter. That's not the case. At least not from what I've seen. She had no excuse to swing. But, that said, Mixon had other choices besides swinging himself. Let's not act as if that was it. Instead of digging your heels in and getting buried on this, first recognize the straw man you're constructing and try to look at it from another POV because tossing out post after post rife with logical fallacies is not a wise choice.

I think we are getting far from the point here. (btw- just from reading the last few pages). I think there was NO doubt that Mixon COULD have, and SHOULD have chosen a dozen better options than what he did, K, on that day. What he did was WRONG, dead wrong. I don't think anyone is denying it or should be trying to defend it.

But what generally happens when someone does something wrong. Well first they punished, and Mixon was. Then there should be some kind of recompense to the victim, and clearly there will be. Third there should be some sort of understanding of how the situation occurred. It there ARE some shades of gray here.

I guess what I'm saying is, Does this single even throw Mixon into the same category as a serial abuser of women. Have their been other examples of him assulting or abusing women in past relationships? If it has happened in the past then he clearly doesn't belong in the league. However if this was something that was a one time occurrence I can see no reason why he shouldn't be on everyone's draft board.

The kid has paid a high price for his mistake. He is currently paying a high price for his mistake, and he WILL continue to pay a high price. A lot of money is going to start to go to his victim. He will make millions less than he could have. And he will be under microscopic scrutiny for as long as he is in the public eye.

Wrong doings should be punished, but for forever???? If you truly believe that then we should definitely be branding people, or cutting off the hands of first time thieves, or, well you get what I mean.

So in the case of Joe Mixon, the question is when is enough, enough?