Butler visiting Saints

[50-yard-line]

Simply, a CB is always going to be more valuable than WR of equal talent.

Why do people keep saying this? The top WR (Brown) makes more APY (17m) than the top corner (Norman - 15APY) and the franchise tag for a WR is 600k MORE than for a CB.

 

[Uptown]

 

[50-yard-line]

Regarding the wink-wink notion on the Cooks/Butler situation, it should be pointed out that the reported offers by the two other teams in on Cooks WERE NOT as good, point-wise, as the deal the Pats offered.

BB and SP are buddies, sure, but they each have responsibilities to their team.

Maybe the trade would be for equal value picks, allowing the Saints to hold onto #11. Or maybe it's a combination of pick and a player, so the Saints could jettison some cap. Who on the Saints would fit that description?

 

[Love The Drake]

No way as its been explained its for 32 no way 11 and if we got 11 you have to take Ross can you imagine the defenses trying to defend that!

 

[50-yard-line]

Show me anything on the CBA that prohibits this.

Not talking about the CBA - talking about the wink-wink side, which would meant he Pats were negotiating for a player illegally, as Butler had not signed any tender (so the Pats could not trade him).

 

[RIpats88]

I wonder if butler will be dissapointed to learn a team like the saints WONT offer him top CB $$ and part with a 1st round pick. Likely he gets offers similar to what the patts gave him.

Most likely scenario is he returns on his tag and looks for a payday next year. He wants his cake and to eat it too but thats not how rfa with a 1st round tender works

 

[zipster9]

If Saints truly have 9-11million left of cap space for Butler, is that enough to get a contact done?

 

[PatriotsPimp136]

No way as its been explained its for 32 no way 11 and if we got 11 you have to take Ross can you imagine the defenses trying to defend that!

It has to be more than just 32. It has to include our 3rd rounder back. This means it's basically a butler and cook swap which is fair value. If they still keep our 3rd then the saints won out.

 

[BradyFTW!]

Pretty sure the Saints have no intention of signing Butler to an offer sheet. They're probably trying to work out a long-term deal with him, at which point they would offer a trade package to the Pats to get him that would include assets that are less than the 11 pick. Probably something closely resembling what we gave up for Cooks, to create something close to a one-for-one swap.

 

[BradyFTW!]

Regarding the wink-wink notion on the Cooks/Butler situation, it should be pointed out that the reported offers by the two other teams in on Cooks WERE NOT as good, point-wise, as the deal the Pats offered.

BB and SP are buddies, sure, but they each have responsibilities to their team.

Maybe the trade would be for equal value picks, allowing the Saints to hold onto #11. Or maybe it's a combination of pick and a player, so the Saints could jettison some cap. Who on the Saints would fit that description?

I think both can be true. The Pats and Saints could have an understanding that the Saints remain interested in trading for Butler, for something roughly equivalent to what they got for Cooks, while it also remains true that the Patriots made the best offer for him.

 

[Marqui]

View attachment 16574
View attachment 16575

Duh, Patriots are letting themselves get bent over by the Saints unless they get a massive haul of picks for Butler or #11, which they won't.

 

[Mack Herron]

Not talking about the CBA - talking about the wink-wink side, which would meant he Pats were negotiating for a player illegally, as Butler had not signed any tender (so the Pats could not trade him).

What rule is being violated? If none, it is not illegal.

 

[Hammer of Thor]

If Saints truly have 9-11million left of cap space for Butler, is that enough to get a contact done?

Contracts could be structured in any way. Saints and Butler agree to pay the RFA tender (~4M) this year, and then have an option bonus at the beginning of the 2018 league year combined with an extension. Or similarly, they could negotiate a 4 year extension (5 year total deal) which pays a $15M signing bonus and lowers his 2017 salary to $1M. That would have a $4M cap charge in 2017.

Of course, the more heavily back-loaded deals you have, the more likely you get into cap hell in the future, which is part of how the Saints got into their cap mess in the first place.

 

[PatriotsPimp136]

Duh, Patriots are letting themselves get bent over by the Saints unless they get a massive haul of picks for Butler or #11, which they won't.

Prepare to be dissapointed if it's just number 32.

 

[mosslost]

1. Still not a single report that Butler has signed his tender, so ANY trade talk is moot.

2. According to Over the Cap, the Saints have just $13MM in cap space. That is NOT much when you consider it will take roughly $3MM to sign their rookies another million to get to 53. That leaves just about 9MM left. There doesn't seem to be enough to get a deal done, even if they could squeeze him in. They'd be ****ed with any injuries. So if Butler expects to get his "top dollar" from the Saints, he put them in a bad situation for this early in the process.

3. I'm still very uncomfortable in what looks like might be basically a straight swap of Butler for Cooks. And it comes back down to the 2 positions the guys play. Simply, a CB is always going to be more valuable than WR of equal talent.

First the CB is going to be on the field 99% of the time, while even the busiest of WR's are in the high 70's. Both Cooks and Edelman were right around 77% last season. And while Cooks offers a dimemsion that we haven't seen in our offense for the last decade, NOT having it hasn't kept us from winning, has it. Having the luxury of two #1 level CB's is likely to have a bigger effect on the Pats winning the game, than a WR who "can take the top off a defense". Last year we saw one of those almost every week. Houston has 2 of them.

Good defense travels, it isn't affected by the weather. I know I've railed enough about losing the draft pick for Cooks, but give this choice, I'd much rather lose the pick than the player. I don't doubt the defense will be good without Butler, but it could be SPECIAL with him.

>>I'm still very uncomfortable in what looks like might be basically a straight swap of Butler for Cooks

I'm more uncomfortable with the fact it would be against league rules if they did that.

 

[Hammer of Thor]

What rule is being violated? If none, it is not illegal.

Article 9, Section 3 of the CBA:

(h) No Consideration Between Clubs. There may be no consideration of any kind given by one Club to another Club in exchange for a Club’s decision to exercise or not to exercise its Right of First Refusal, or in exchange for a Club’s decision to sub-mit or not to submit an Offer Sheet to a Restricted Free Agent or to make or not to make an offer to enter into a Player Contract with a Restricted Free Agent. Nothing in
this Subsection shall preclude a Prior Club from entering into a Player Contract with a player subject to a Tender, and subsequently trading that player under that Player Con-tract to another Club, provided that the player and the NFLPA must approve in advance any such trade that takes place during the Signing Period. If a Club exercises its Right of First Refusal and matches an Offer Sheet, that Club may not trade that player to the Club that submitted the Offer Sheet for at least one calendar year, unless the player consents to such trade.

Goodell could very well view Brandon Cooks as "consideration" if he wants. Doesn't mean he won't have a fight on his hands and/or that he'll win, etc. but he could try if he wanted to.

 

[TBR]

I'm still not seeing how the Pats allegedly "fleeced" the Saints for Cooks (seemed like a very fair deal) and therefore BB will do them a favor by circumventing the RFA tender process by matching the Saints' offer for Butler and trade him there for the #32 so they won't have to give up the #11.

 

[Froob]

Between Butler and Cooks tho, Butler is the more valuable player without a doubt.

 

[Marqui]

Prepare to be dissapointed if it's just number 32.

Did you not read my 1st post? I'm fully prepared to get fleeced.

 

[PatriotsPimp136]

I'm still not seeing how the Pats allegedly "fleeced" the Saints for Cooks (seemed like a very fair deal) and therefore BB will do them a favor by circumventing the RFA tender process by matching the Saints' offer for Butler and trade him there for the #32 so they won't have to give up the #11.

They still have our 3rd rounder. How's that
fair value?