OT: Onside kick last night

[Wheelman]

What were they complaining about?

They complained about getting skooled like a little cry baby.

 

[Concussion Protocol]

http://static.nfl.com/static/content/public/image/rulebook/pdfs/13_Rule10_CatchKick_FairCatch.pdf

Rule 10 Opportunity to Catch a Kick, Fair Catch Section 1 Opportunity to Catch a Kick INTERFERENCE

Article 1 During a scrimmage kick that crosses the line of scrimmage, or during a free kick, members of the kicking team are prohibited from interfering with any receiver making an attempt to catch the airborne kick, or from obstructing or hindering his path to the airborne kick, and regardless of whether any signal was given.

Item 1: Contact with Receiver. It is interference if a player of the kicking team contacts the receiver, or causes a passive player of either team to contact the receiver, before or simultaneous to his touching the ball.

Item 2: Right of Way. A receiver who is moving toward a kicked ball that is in flight has the right of way. If opponents obstruct his path to the ball, or cause a passive player of either team to obstruct his path, it is interference, even if there is no contact, or if he catches the ball in spite of the interference, and regardless of whether any signal was given.

 

[Ring 6]

It seems like did, at least in the NFL in 2003. has the rule changed? edit: the article doesn't say if a Tampa player was in position to make a play on the ball


This article may be relevant:

Oops: NFL admits error in onside kick call


The NFL has admitted that game officials made a critical error late in the Oct. 6 Monday night game between the Tampa Bay Buccaneers and the Indianapolis Colts.

With 3:37 left in the fourth quarter and the Bucs leading 35-21, Colts placekicker Mike Vanderjagt's onside kick sailed airborne and was caught by Colts safety Idrees Bashir at the Indianapolis 42.

The Colts took advantage, driving 58 yards for a touchdown and eventually became the first team in league history to rally from 21 points behind in the final four minutes of regulation. They won
38-35 in overtime.

Mike Pereira, the NFL's director of officiating, told the San Francisco Chronicle on Tuesday that the game's officials failed to apply Rule 10, Section 1, Article 4, which says that on that type of an onside kick, the receiving team must be given the chance to catch the ball if the ball does not touch the ground.

A kicking team is allowed to recover an onside kick providing the ball has traveled 10 yards and has hit the ground.

Vanderjagt's kick did not hit the ground, and so the Colts should have been penalized 15 yards from the spot of the foul for interfereing with the Buc's right to catch the ball, according to the NFL.

That penalty would have given Tampa Bay the ball at the Indianapolis 27 yard line, the paper reported.

Pereira told the paper the play was not subject to review under the instant-replay rule.

Bucs coach Jon Gruden told the paper the team can't afford to look back whether an error was made or not.

"I don't know what you can do," Gruden told the paper. "There was a lot of screaming down there, and in the play that involved (defensive end) Simeon (Rice). (We were) trying to get them to look at the instant replay up there. Again, that game is over, I'm ready to get it out of here. I don't want to talk about it anymore.

"At the same time, with the officials, you understand that they have a very hard job to do," Gruden said. "Sometimes you wish there was no such thing as instant replay. All it does is prolong the agony."

Again, I think the key is 'interfering'. Last night there was no one within 15 yards of the ball. I don't remember the play in Tampa, but if a Buc was trying to make the catch and was hit, then its as I say, just like PI.

 

[Ring 6]

http://static.nfl.com/static/content/public/image/rulebook/pdfs/13_Rule10_CatchKick_FairCatch.pdf

Rule 10 Opportunity to Catch a Kick, Fair Catch Section 1 Opportunity to Catch a Kick INTERFERENCE

Article 1 During a scrimmage kick that crosses the line of scrimmage, or during a free kick, members of the kicking team are prohibited from interfering with any receiver making an attempt to catch the airborne kick, or from obstructing or hindering his path to the airborne kick, and regardless of whether any signal was given.

Item 1: Contact with Receiver. It is interference if a player of the kicking team contacts the receiver, or causes a passive player of either team to contact the receiver, before or simultaneous to his touching the ball.

Item 2: Right of Way. A receiver who is moving toward a kicked ball that is in flight has the right of way. If opponents obstruct his path to the ball, or cause a passive player of either team to obstruct his path, it is interference, even if there is no contact, or if he catches the ball in spite of the interference, and regardless of whether any signal was given.

A tiny bit different than I understood it but pretty much the same, and what happened last night would be 100% legal in the NFL.

One thing though. This says 'during a scrimmage kick or free kick' so that may not apply to kick offs. Depends on the literal definition of 'free kick'.

 

[Ring 6]

http://static.nfl.com/static/content/public/image/rulebook/pdfs/13_Rule10_CatchKick_FairCatch.pdf

Rule 10 Opportunity to Catch a Kick, Fair Catch Section 1 Opportunity to Catch a Kick INTERFERENCE

Article 1 During a scrimmage kick that crosses the line of scrimmage, or during a free kick, members of the kicking team are prohibited from interfering with any receiver making an attempt to catch the airborne kick, or from obstructing or hindering his path to the airborne kick, and regardless of whether any signal was given.

Item 1: Contact with Receiver. It is interference if a player of the kicking team contacts the receiver, or causes a passive player of either team to contact the receiver, before or simultaneous to his touching the ball.

Item 2: Right of Way. A receiver who is moving toward a kicked ball that is in flight has the right of way. If opponents obstruct his path to the ball, or cause a passive player of either team to obstruct his path, it is interference, even if there is no contact, or if he catches the ball in spite of the interference, and regardless of whether any signal was given.

Perrera referred to Section 4 of Rule 10, Article 1. Do you have access to copy that in as well?

 

[Concussion Protocol]

Perrera referred to Section 4 of Rule 10, Article 1. Do you have access to copy that in as well?

No, having some trouble finding more than Sections 1 & 2

Article 1 Item 2 seems to be pretty clear that the receiving team has the right of way on an airborne kick, as I had thought.

 

[Concussion Protocol]

A tiny bit different than I understood it but pretty much the same, and what happened last night would be 100% legal in the NFL.

One thing though. This says 'during a scrimmage kick or free kick' so that may not apply to kick offs. Depends on the literal definition of 'free kick'.

Kickoffs are a type of free kick (no opponents within 10 yards of the ball), but since there is no specific term for the commonly known free-kick-after-safety, the latter has kind of absorbed that terminology.

edit:
http://static.nfl.com/static/content/public/image/rulebook/pdfs/9_Rule6_Free_Kicks.pdf

The rulebook calls them "safety kicks", and yes, kickoffs fall under the free kick category

 

[rochrist]

That really was a great kick. I don't know how it's possible to bang the ball into the turf and make it bounce into the intended target's arms with the accuracy of a pass.

He didn't. It didn't hit the ground at all. Just a pooch kick. Much easier to control.

 

[rochrist]

Yes they could have. Normally the guy up their blocking wouldn't think about that. Now it will be coached though.
The problem is the guy was nowhere near the ball. Like 15 yards away. Great film study by Saban turned it into a very easy play, as long as the guy kept doing what they saw on film.

Yeah, calling for a fair catch would have accomplished nothing. Alabama still has the right to catch the ball, the fair catch only means they can't hit a Clemson player catching it, but there was no Clemson player anywhere near it.

 

[Concussion Protocol]

He didn't. It didn't hit the ground at all. Just a pooch kick. Much easier to control.

Indeed, but a pooch kick allows for protections for the receiving team that don't exist when the ball is banged into the ground. Hence the reason why balls are usually banged into the ground.

Not really relevant here, since no Clemson players were close enough to the ball to either call a fair catch or have their right of way impeded.

 

[Kontradiction]

What were they complaining about?

The Tigers successfully converted an onside kick last season against South Carolina that was wiped out because the referees stated Clemson never gave SC a chance to catch the ball. That what Swinney was so infuriated about.

 

[convertedpatsfan]

What were they complaining about?

No clue, but he was pretty pissed.

He must have thought it was illegal, as there was some confusion over the college rules.

This link describes the rule. Must have been confused about the "or" part of the rules.

Alabama's Crazy Surprise Onside Kick Was Indeed Legal

 

[Ring 6]

I know this is wiki but it states that kicking the ball off of the ground removes the possibility of being charged with an interference call.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Onside_kickhttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Onside_kick (<<< Link)

Yes but that doesn't apply on a play like last night because there was no one standing there to prevent from catching it.

 

[Tony2046]

Yes but that doesn't apply on a play like last night because there was no one standing there to prevent from catching it.

Yeah I've deleted that post. You guys have pretty much covered it.


Interesting discussion. I never knew why kickers would kick into the ground but just assumed it was necessary during an onside kick until now that is.

 

[Ring 6]

Yeah I've deleted that post. You guys have pretty much covered it.


Interesting discussion. I never knew why kickers would kick into the ground but just assumed it was necessary during an onside kick until now that is.

Well it would be very hard to recover the pop up kick if they were ready for an onside. It only works as a surprise, because they KR team is already in place and the kicking team needs to run 10 yards.
Even if not for the fair catch rule, it would be easier to ground it and hope for a bounce