OT: The Buffalo Bills on borrowed time in western NY and the AFC East?

[PATRIOTSFANINPA]

This team in our division is on borrowed time,Wilson will NOT keep the team in the family and that spells doom for the fans of Buffalo.

IMO the new owner when Ralph dies is DEFINATELY without a doubt in my mind going to move this franchise,There is NO big market and interest outside this city anymore and the new owner will never keep it there.

Once Ralph dies I expect the team to move to California - The Anaheim Bills?

Wilson is now 88 years old and any day could be the last.

Ralph has been owner of this team for 48 years and had to go though a 4 year stretch of being the Super Bowl runner-up that was probably so dissapointing to him you gotta feel sorry that he will likely die without a championship over all 48+ years,He bought this team for $25,000 and its now worth 625 million

These type of owners who hold on to thier team this long with so many ups and downs along the way,come once in our lifetime,Ralph definately is to be respected as one of the best owners in NFL history.

The only way I see the Bills remaining in Buffalo is if a local business man and a huge bills fan from the city goes on to buy it like Kraft did in New England or Marv Levy decides to buy the team and take over as CEO if he outlives Wilson,Marv probably has the $$$ to buy it but his age once again would probably eliminate the possibility to enjoy the team long enough to buy it.

Here is a recent article about it.... http://www.democratandchronicle.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070617/SPORTS03/70617001

 

[37Harrison]

This team in our division is on borrowed time,Wilson will NOT keep the team in the family and that spells doom for the fans of Buffalo.

IMO the new owner when Ralph dies is DEFINATELY without a doubt in my mind going to move this franchise,There is NO big market and interest outside this city anymore and the new owner will never keep it there.

Once Ralph dies I expect the team to move to California - The Anaheim Bills?

Wilson is now 88 years old and any day could be the last.

Ralph has been owner of this team for 48 years and had to go though a 4 year stretch of being the Super Bowl runner-up that was probably so dissapointing to him you gotta feel sorry that he will likely die without a championship over all 48+ years,He bought this team for $25,000 and its now worth 625 million

These type of owners who hold on to thier team this long with so many ups and downs along the way,come once in our lifetime,Ralph definately is to be respected as one of the best owners in NFL history.

The only way I see the Bills remaining in Buffalo is if a local business man and a huge bills fan from the city goes on to buy it like Kraft did in New England or Marv Levy decides to buy the team and take over as CEO if he outlives Wilson,Marv probably has the $$$ to buy it but his age once again would probably eliminate the possibility to enjoy the team long enough to buy it.

Here is a recent article about it.... http://www.democratandchronicle.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070617/SPORTS03/70617001

I don't feel sorry for him or his family one bit.

 

[PATRIOTSFANINPA]

I don't feel sorry for him or his family one bit.

Yes he has made lots of money but I think he would have given at least half of that money back for a championship for the team and city.

 

[QuickOutGo]

Jeremy Jacobs is from Buffalo. He'd be a perfect buyer from a Patriots perspective. He'd keep the team in Buffalo and the AFC East. And given his decades long track record of mismanaging the Bruins, I'd have absolutely no problem letting him take a crack at running an AFC East foe into the ground.

 

[Bobs My Uncle]

Most of the locals believe that Tom Golisano, the billionaire founder of Paychex, and the owner of the Buffalo Sabres, will end up buying the team and will keep it in Buffalo. Golisano lives in Rochester, NY.

 

[upstater1]

What do you mean by "No interest?"

Buffalo has a lot of loyal fans. The city is experiencing an economic resurgence. And there are still over 3 million people that live within 60 miles of Buffalo.

Then you have the wild card: Chuck Schumer threatening the NFL's antitrust status. New York has no other professional football team. That gets people involved, believe it or not.

I bet the NFL will do all it can to make sure the next owner keeps the team in town. There's also a lot of industry up here, and people like Paychex's Golisano have already tried to buy the team from Ralph.

I have no idea whether that means they'll stay, but I think it's pretty easy to make a go of it here, as long as the current CBA remains in tact. If the NFL becomes more like MLB, then yeah, Buffalo will be like Pittsburgh or Kansas City.

 

[PatsWickedPissah]

Then you have the wild card: Chuck Schumer threatening the NFL's antitrust status. New York has no other professional football team.

Obviously not a Jets or Giants fan...

 

[Rob0729]

I think if the league keeps going like it is, Buffalo is going to lose the Bills no matter who is owning the team. Smaller markets will be forced to relocate eventually based on the way the cap is going. The Bills just cannot afford to keep up with all these big signing bonuses that teams give out. Yes, everyone is working with the same cap, but a team like the Patriots are far more equiped to shell out a $10 million upfront signing bonus than the Bills are based on their additional revenues. We aren't talking cap money, we are talking real dollars.

A city like Buffalo has problem with fan support (not passion, but number of fans they can fill the stadium with), the price point of their tickets (Buffalo is a blue collared town for the most part and they could never get their fans to pay what we pay for our tickets), luxary boxes (there isn't enough corporate prescense), and additional advertising. Unless the rest of the league puts a cap on upfront bonuses or share more revenue, teams like the Bills, Jags, Bengals, etc. will be forced to relocate to more profitable areas at some point.

 

[upstater1]

Obviously not a Jets or Giants fan...

You mean the New Jersey Giants and jets?

 

[upstater1]

I think if the league keeps going like it is, Buffalo is going to lose the Bills no matter who is owning the team. Smaller markets will be forced to relocate eventually based on the way the cap is going. The Bills just cannot afford to keep up with all these big signing bonuses that teams give out. Yes, everyone is working with the same cap, but a team like the Patriots are far more equiped to shell out a $10 million upfront signing bonus than the Bills are based on their additional revenues.We aren't talking cap money, we are talking real dollars.

What's the difference? In real dollars, it amounts to the same exact thing. All the upfront money counts against the cap. No way around it.

A city like Buffalo has problem with fan support (not passion, but number of fans they can fill the stadium with),

They've been top 10 in attendance for over 20 years now. Not only do they fill the seats but they have over 3 million people living in the region.

Some of the corporations located up in the region: M&T Bank, HSBC, Delaware North, Benderson International, Eastman Kodak, Bausch & Lomb, Xerox, New Era Athletic, Delphi Automotive, Dunlop Tire, LaBatt's Brewing USA, etc. Not exactly an economic hornet's nest, but all these major companies are the types that like to advertise the brand.

Unless the rest of the league puts a cap on upfront bonuses or share more revenue, teams like the Bills, Jags, Bengals, etc. will be forced to relocate to more profitable areas at some point.

There is a cap on upfront bonuses. I think we're working from two different sets of assumptions.

I know Cincy, Buffalo and Jax are not very wealthy areas. Neither are Kansas city, Pittsburgh and a few others. But, the question I always ask is, move to where? Can we name a few cities that these teams could move to? That's where I always find a problem. There just aren't that many places to go to other than Los Angeles, and something tells me that the league already has a team in mind for LA.

 

[TomBrady'sGoat]

Yeah the Bills may be in a lesser market, but what non-football market is really better? There are only so many Dallases to go around.

I figure you're better off being a central part of life in a small market like Buffalo than "just another attraction" in a city like LA or Las Vegas (where the NFL will never go anyway). Smaller market teams can compete just fine in the NFL.

The team has been bad lately, but that's all on the field. That can change pretty quickly.

 

[patfanken]

While I feel for Wilson's 40 year wait for a supebowl, I have no sympathy with a guy who has turned a $25,000 investment into a $650MM cash cow. I'm also really tired of hearing about this small market crap. Just about 15 years ago the Patriots were the LOWEST revenue producing team in the league. Now it is consistantly in the top 5. That just didn't happen. There was a lot of work and commitment that had to happen BEFORE those revenue dollars started to flow in.

I get really PO'd when guys like Wilson and Brown keep crying poor mouth in a salary cap era. While they aren't in what might be concidered a MAJOR market, they STILL could do a lot better than they are in producing revenue. They just have to work at it. GB, which has the worst demographics in professional sports does a great job in marketing their team.

My greatest fear for the league long term is the day when guys like Kraft and Jerry Jones get tired of subsidizing teams like the Bills and Browns who don't do the work and just syphon off the profits.

 

[Dagg]

Trust me I live in rochester NY, Golisano will buy the Bills and keep them in Buffalo. He definatley has the $.

 

[bronk37]

that would suck to not have the bills in the division anymore, they have alot of history. If they got moved to LA who would take over there spot in the east ?? Colts back into the east??

 

[spacecrime]

that would suck to not have the bills in the division anymore

Why?

At this point I'd rather bring the Colts back and play them twice a year. That would be a set of division rivals: Colts, Jets, Dolphins (when they get better, they'll be an opponent to be concerned with again).

Man, talk about some passionate games!

Bills just suck. No personality since OJ, Kelly etc.

 

[Rob0729]

What's the difference? In real dollars, it amounts to the same exact thing. All the upfront money counts against the cap. No way around it.

It is a HUUUUGGGGEEEEE difference. It is cash on hand and how much money you can finance. All upfront money counts, but it is easier to get up front money if you make more money. The Patriots probably make twice or even three times as much money as the Bills do. They can shell out $10 million from their profits. The Bills would probably have to finance it. There is only so much financing a team can do before the bank says no more.


This is a simple economics issue, not a cap issue. The Patriots are the second highest revenue team and the Bills are the lowest revenue team. The Pats can far more easily afford to shell out more upfront money to players because they have far more revenue coming in than the Bills. The cap has nothing to do with this. The banks have far more to do with this.

They've been top 10 in attendance for over 20 years now. Not only do they fill the seats but they have over 3 million people living in the region.

And they are dead last in average ticket price (their average ticket is half of what the Patriots' average ticket is). This is because their population cannot or will not pay for tickets at the league average. This is a big part of the reason why they are dead last in revenues.

Some of the corporations located up in the region: M&T Bank, HSBC, Delaware North, Benderson International, Eastman Kodak, Bausch & Lomb, Xerox, New Era Athletic, Delphi Automotive, Dunlop Tire, LaBatt's Brewing USA, etc. Not exactly an economic hornet's nest, but all these major companies are the types that like to advertise the brand.

Only a few of the companies you mentioned have their corporate headquarters based in the Buffalo era. I doubt that many corporations will allow their subbranches shellout $100,000 plus a year for ten games a year.

There is a cap on upfront bonuses. I think we're working from two different sets of assumptions.

I know Cincy, Buffalo and Jax are not very wealthy areas. Neither are Kansas city, Pittsburgh and a few others. But, the question I always ask is, move to where? Can we name a few cities that these teams could move to? That's where I always find a problem. There just aren't that many places to go to other than Los Angeles, and something tells me that the league already has a team in mind for LA.

Pittsburgh and KC have fans who are willing to pay for their tickets. KC has the third highest average ticket rate behind NE and Washington. Pittsburgh has the 16th most, but also has a brand new stadium with the Heinz corporation paying big bucks for the naming rights.

As for cities that would better support a team than Buffalo, LA, San Antonio, Portland, a SC team potentially, and a few other places have been discussed. Buffalo isn't even one of the 50 top populated cities from what I could find.

 

[psychoPat]

It is a HUUUUGGGGEEEEE difference. It is cash on hand and how much money you can finance. All upfront money counts, but it is easier to get up front money if you make more money. The Patriots probably make twice or even three times as much money as the Bills do. They can shell out $10 million from their profits. The Bills would probably have to finance it. There is only so much financing a team can do before the bank says no more.


This is a simple economics issue, not a cap issue. The Patriots are the second highest revenue team and the Bills are the lowest revenue team. The Pats can far more easily afford to shell out more upfront money to players because they have far more revenue coming in than the Bills. The cap has nothing to do with this. The banks have far more to do with this.

....

Come on, Rob0! I'm sure you know better than that.

Call the salary cap 100 million - simplifying for clarity.
The sal cap is (call it) 60% of defined revenues - or whatever adjective the CBA uses. Mostly tv revs.

That means the club grosses 67 mil more than it owes to players.
Then it takes in the other revenues: luxury boxes, paraphernalia, local radio rights, etc.

Out of THAT 67++ million it pays for coaches, travel, scouting, and every other expense.
What is left is the owner's profit.

Because the undefined revs and the uncapped expenses vary ...
that's why profits vary.
Those are mostly under management's control.

You can argue about whether Wilson has as good a shot at big profits as Kraft.
But you cannot argue that he cannot find the cash to pay signing bonuses the same as everyone else.

 

[Rob0729]

Come on, Rob0! I'm sure you know better than that.

Call the salary cap 100 million - simplifying for clarity.
The sal cap is (call it) 60% of defined revenues - or whatever adjective the CBA uses. Mostly tv revs.

That means the club grosses 67 mil more than it owes to players.
Then it takes in the other revenues: luxury boxes, paraphernalia, local radio rights, etc.

Out of THAT 40++ million it pays for coaches, travel, scouting, and every other expense.
What is left is the owner's profit.

Because the undefined revs and the uncapped expenses vary ...
that's why profits vary.
Those are mostly under management's control.

You can argue about whether Wilson has as good a shot at big profits as Kraft.
But you cannot argue that he cannot find the cash to pay signing bonuses the same as everyone else.

We are talking salary cap vs. money paid out. These are two different things. The Pats pay out actual dollars well over the cap virtually every year. Are they violating the cap rules? No. Dollars actual paid are totally different than the actual cap.

For example, Adalius Thomas cost the Patriots $13 million this year, but he only counts $3.4 million vs. the cap. Wes Welker got a $5.5 million bonus, but only counts $1.7 million towards the cap. So those two players are going to get paid $19 million by the Patriots this year between the two, but only count $5.1 million vs. the cap.

The Pats will most likely be under the $113 million adjusted cap, but I wouldn't be surprised that they will actually pay over $140 million in actual money this year. Again, it is real dollars vs. salary cap dollars.

People keep talking about the cap as if it means everything about how much a team can afford to pay in actual dollars for up front bonuses. Signing bonuses can be amortized over the life of the contract that gives higher revenue teams more of an advantage because they can afford to shell out monster signing bonuses and it won't make a huge effect on their profitability or operating revenues.

Again this is simple economics, not salary cap issues. If you have a $100 million cap and a player counts $3.4 million vs. the cap, but you paid him $13 million in real dollars; you most likely have spent far more more money the the actual salary cap for that year.

So who cares what the revenues vs. the cap. The cap is a BS number when it comes to determining how much a team spends in salaries every year. High revenue teams like the Patriots spend well over the cap every single year.

 

[Kontradiction]

I could personally care less.

 

[Tunescribe]

I wouldn't mind seeing the Ravens in this division. Would rather see them than the Colts if a change had to be made.