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Is this really a play-off caliber offense?

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I wasn't saying just put Gronk out there by himself. There will actually be other receivers out there. to catch the ball when Gronk is doubled and tripled. It just doesn't really matter all that much who those receivers are. Amendola? LaFell? Hankerson? Martin? Yup, they'll all work just fine as long as TFB and Gronk are healthy.

The offense really struggled vs. Denver because they were on the road against the best defense in the NFL.
No I think your wrong. It does matter.
 
Offense went stale after Amendola went out of the game ...
Such a hasty thread IMO .... mountain out of a mole hill as they say.
Not as bad as the RB controversy thread though .... that one was worse.
Patience is a virtue ............
How many other teams are 12-2 with 17 IR'd?

I'll tell you what...if the O-line can better protect Brady this Sunday....and if the Pats outscore the Jets without their #1 and #2 receiver (Amendola and Edelman), then I'll be quite happy about our team going into the postseason. Quite happy indeed!

As far as your feeling towards my threads goes.....well.... you can't please everyone, can you?
 
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No I think your wrong. It does matter.


Nope. It doesn't. It's good enough to win the Super Bowl no matter who we trot out there at WR. Putting a healthy Edelman out there, too, makes it a damn near lock, anyone else gives us a solid chance.
 
Nope. It doesn't. It's good enough to win the Super Bowl no matter who we trot out there at WR. Putting a healthy Edelman out there, too, makes it a damn near lock, anyone else gives us a solid chance.
With any luck we won't find out. Let them all be healthy and ready to go. 1 more scrape by game to win and then some much needed rest.
 
Right now it is not a high quality offense. Right now it is a lightly above middling.
Just the addition of Jules will vault this team back to clear quality. Add Gronk, add DA, add BL, and add the clear emergence of White as a viable passing option will equal a team who will score near or better than 30 on any defense.

Fair enough. The O probably is still better than "slightly above middling" as I termed it. However, Deus nailed it as far as what it currently is. The injuries made the offense less potent and it forced the Patriots to dial back some of the play calling. Couple that with a running game that was already struggling and now down to a first NFL game "FB" being the leading rusher and what you have is an offense that isn't at a potent level. Still good? Yes. Potent? IMHO no.
With that said, getting Jules back will cause this O to take a major step upward. He is Brady's chain mover extraordinaire. Plus if SJ can be just an average producing conventional RB and White's recent performances can now be counted on, the O will be starkly potent again.
IMHO the concerning issue with the O in the playoffs will be the OL. IMHO the OL will determine more than anything else (assuming injuries don't strike hard again) whether the O is potent-ish or a PO juggernaut.
If health returns as expected (which I believe it will) and if the OL plays well in the POs(???), go ahead and book your tickets for Santa Clara. The Patriots are noticeably good in all 3 facets to be beaten by anyone but themselves...
 
Fair enough. The O probably is still better than "slightly above middling" as I termed it. However, Deus nailed it as far as what it currently is. The injuries made the offense less potent and it forced the Patriots to dial back some of the play calling. Couple that with a running game that was already struggling and now down to a first NFL game "FB" being the leading rusher and what you have is an offense that isn't at a potent level. Still good? Yes. Potent? IMHO no.
With that said, getting Jules back will cause this O to take a major step upward. He is Brady's chain mover extraordinaire. Plus if SJ can be just an average producing conventional RB and White's recent performances can now be counted on, the O will be starkly potent again.
IMHO the concerning issue with the O in the playoffs will be the OL. IMHO the OL will determine more than anything else (assuming injuries don't strike hard again) whether the O is potent-ish or a PO juggernaut.
If health returns as expected (which I believe it will) and if the OL plays well in the POs(???), go ahead and book your tickets for Santa Clara. The Patriots are noticeably good in all 3 facets to be beaten by anyone but themselves...

Well put.

Interesting that we went from "we've got too many quality OL and need to explore trading someone" to "let's hope the OL can turn things around and play well enough to compete" in such a small window of time. I bet it's been no more than 6 weeks.

If the OL holds up and the injuries don't destroy our chances, the odds of winning a couple of games in the postseason are good, but that's about as far as I'll go for now. Just getting there again would be a tremendous achievement.
 
Lafell's a big wildcard. If he can start producing it would make our offense unstoppable.
 
I have to say, we have a championship-caliber defense. Like Mike Reiss said, "[t]his is easily the deepest, most talented and athletic front seven in recent Patriots years." Not to mention, the Patriots secondary is playing like no one expected them to play!

However, I can't say the same about the rest of the team - and that goes for special teams as well.

Right now, the offense is battling through injuries and inconsistency. The offensive line keeps struggling with consistency against talented pass rushers. Meanwhile, Brady’s weapons keep getting hurt. And the healthy ones keep dropping passes. In a nutshell, Tom Brady is playing about as well as he can as the rest of the offense crumbles around him. But will it be enough to compete and play in the playoffs?

Your thoughts.....

I agree with this somewhat...a faceplant from the offense in January would not shock me. This year has proven how valuable Edelman and Gronkowski are, and if they are either off their game or shutdown, there's a giant drop off. The offensive line is just not very good. The offense has looked very stoppable since around week 9. That said, show me which offenses around the NFL that are currently looking like a well-oiled machine. Pittsburgh, Carolina, Seattle, and Arizona are all hot, but all of them have gone through some bad stretches and are no sure thing either.
 
I agree with this somewhat...a faceplant from the offense in January would not shock me.

No one thought that we were going to put up low totals in the 2007, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012, and 2013 postseason losses, so that's normally how it goes down. It wouldn't be shocking at all, and is actually how we end up losing in most seasons. The OL, running game, and injuries are 3 variables that need to improve.
 
I'll tell you what...if the O-line can better protect Brady this Sunday....and if the Pats outscore the Jets without their #1 and #2 receiver (Amendola and Edelman), then I'll be quite happy about our team going into the postseason. Quite happy indeed!

How many teams perform at a playoff level without their top two receivers? If your standard is 4 deep in quality receivers, then you should be happy if 3 and 4 play to the level of 1 and 2 on Sunday.

I don't believe the offense has played at a playoff level without Gronk and Jules and with a gimpy Amendola. The absence of a quick threat pressures the line, and so it looks worse as the lesser receivers need time to get open.

Thankfully, this is 12/21, not 1/16. All three of the receiver issues may be cured, the current crop of receivers may actually improve with reps, and we may have possibilities in the running game. All of this will help the line. I seriously doubt the current version of the Pats offense will be the 1/16 version.
 
Well put.

Interesting that we went from "we've got too many quality OL and need to explore trading someone" to "let's hope the OL can turn things around and play well enough to compete" in such a small window of time. I bet it's been no more than 6 weeks.

If the OL holds up and the injuries don't destroy our chances, the odds of winning a couple of games in the postseason are good, but that's about as far as I'll go for now. Just getting there again would be a tremendous achievement.

We are well established on our divergence on the level of confidence for our chances. (I think this is our third thread we have touched on our semi diverging level of expectations).

I've been leaning much more toward your highly cautious optimism as the injuries have piled up. But after the injury outlook being termed optimistic as well as looking around the AFC teams (Cincy, Denver, Pitt, KC, Jets), I see a Patriots team that is very good on the O, very good on D, rock solid K and P, BB needing to win twice at home against a list of teams that are clearly not balanced like the Patriots.

Provided the health forecast turns out to be correct, I am back to believing the Patriots will be going to Santa Clara unless they beat themselves.
 
James White emerging is huge. If Stephen Jackson can give us more than what Blount did then we're going to be fine.
 
We are well established on our divergence on the level of confidence for our chances. (I think this is our third thread we have touched on our semi diverging level of expectations).

I've been leaning much more toward your highly cautious optimism as the injuries have piled up. But after the injury outlook being termed optimistic as well as looking around the AFC teams (Cincy, Denver, Pitt, KC, Jets), I see a Patriots team that is very good on the O, very good on D, rock solid K and P, BB needing to win twice at home against a list of teams that are clearly not balanced like the Patriots.

Provided the health forecast turns out to be correct, I am back to believing the Patriots will be going to Santa Clara unless they beat themselves.

Yes, our "gap" is lessening with each passing week, and I fully agree with you now that a spot in the big game is quite realistic. The lack of an adequate QB (at the moment) in both CIN/DEN as well as clinching the bye have helped to raise my levels of optimism.

Not to ruin the above paragraph, but I think some of my caution tends to stem from other successful seasons. After all, we have this same conversation just about every year on the forum, and none of us (well, aside from maybe 2013 @DEN) ever expect to lose. It's probably some weird attempt at a defense mechanism where I expect to pick around #28, 29 every year (which is amazing, in and of itself), and anything above that is a bonus!
 
Yes, our "gap" is lessening with each passing week, and I fully agree with you now that a spot in the big game is quite realistic. The lack of an adequate QB (at the moment) in both CIN/DEN as well as clinching the bye have helped to raise my levels of optimism.

Not to ruin the above paragraph, but I think some of my caution tends to stem from other successful seasons. After all, we have this same conversation just about every year on the forum, and none of us (well, aside from maybe 2013 @DEN) ever expect to lose. It's probably some weird attempt at a defense mechanism where I expect to pick around #28, 29 every year (which is amazing, in and of itself), and anything above that is a bonus!

Your's is a level headed approach -- as usual for you Sup.
Ask this question about those years past: How did you feel about 2011 and 2012(for example)? Some wins in the POs in 2011 most definitely had an element of surprise and relief. Elements of 'can we beat these guys?'. In 2012 while I felt we could and probably should beat the Ravens I was distinctly uneasy about what would transpire on gameday.
The common thread among those teams in my estimation was their stark lack of balance. Either a heavy reliance on the passing game to outscore the opponents or needing a D effort that was over their heads (due to BB and the players gritting it out).
Those teams had commonality of things like lacking a pass rush, and/or had a porous secondary, and/or run Ds that were so-so, and/or LBs that were adequate. On O we were often close to two trick ponies in the passing game (due to base personnel or injury).

So the big questions to you for this year is, where are the weaknesses like the years past (except run game which the Patriots have proven they can get by without frequently)? pass rush? secondary? playmaking LBs? While the DL hasn't lit it up in the Run D department, when we set out to stop the run do we usually do it?
And unlike past passing games, assuming White's numbers say he has arrived to this satisfactory/better than satisfactory degree, Brady has 4 targets that are proven that can catch up to 10 balls a game along with LaFell who caught 70 passes a year ago (and Martin who actually looks like he can be that decent pitch in here and there -- side note:I've given up on Chandler).

Maybe the rose colored glasses are too thick for me this year but I see this team as clearly more balanced than anything the AFC has got to offer. And when BB has a Bye to go with a balanced team it more likely than not, noticeably, equals a SB birth. But the sweetener for this year is looking around the AFC to see the other contenders and seeing they are clearly not balanced. I feel that takes it from likely to most likely. Sure, any given Sunday, however, as long as the Patriots don't beat themselves and the scummy league doesn't try to coax their preferred outcome, I'll be the first guy to post his shock/admit he was wrong if we aren't playing in Santa Clara in Feb.
As to winning the SB? We'll see who the competition is and how well we disposed of the AFC competition before I state my confidence level (if Lewis was still active I would be brimming with confidence).
 
Your's is a level headed approach -- as usual for you Sup.
Ask this question about those years past: How did you feel about 2011 and 2012(for example)? Some wins in the POs in 2011 most definitely had an element of surprise and relief. Elements of 'can we beat these guys?'. In 2012 while I felt we could and probably should beat the Ravens I was distinctly uneasy about what would transpire on gameday.
The common thread among those teams in my estimation was their stark lack of balance. Either a heavy reliance on the passing game to outscore the opponents or needing a D effort that was over their heads (due to BB and the players gritting it out).
Those teams had commonality of things like lacking a pass rush, and/or had a porous secondary, and/or run Ds that were so-so, and/or LBs that were adequate. On O we were often close to two trick ponies in the passing game (due to base personnel or injury).

So the big questions to you for this year is, where are the weaknesses like the years past (except run game which the Patriots have proven they can get by without frequently)? pass rush? secondary? playmaking LBs? While the DL hasn't lit it up in the Run D department, when we set out to stop the run do we usually do it?
And unlike past passing games, assuming White's numbers say he has arrived to this satisfactory/better than satisfactory degree, Brady has 4 targets that are proven that can catch up to 10 balls a game along with LaFell who caught 70 passes a year ago (and Martin who actually looks like he can be that decent pitch in here and there -- side note:I've given up on Chandler).

Maybe the rose colored glasses are too thick for me this year but I see this team as clearly more balanced than anything the AFC has got to offer. And when BB has a Bye to go with a balanced team it more likely than not, noticeably, equals a SB birth. But the sweetener for this year is looking around the AFC to see the other contenders and seeing they are clearly not balanced. I feel that takes it from likely to most likely. Sure, any given Sunday, however, as long as the Patriots don't beat themselves and the scummy league doesn't try to coax their preferred outcome, I'll be the first guy to post his shock/admit he was wrong if we aren't playing in Santa Clara in Feb.
As to winning the SB? We'll see who the competition is and how well we disposed of the AFC competition before I state my confidence level (if Lewis was still active I would be brimming with confidence).

As you've stated, I believe that the 1) injuries are obviously the biggest wildcard. There's no doubting your opinion that when healthy, we're clearly the cream of the crop.

I do have some major concerns for the 2) running game, though, and your example of the 2012 AFCCG loss to Baltimore is an excellent one to drive the point home. During that game, we had the ball inside of the BAL 35 (normally considered scoring territory) a total of SEVEN times, yet only came away with 13 points due to the windy conditions that were seen that day. Considering that it's Foxborough, I worry that we may see some type of weather conditions which equal the playing field a bit, despite the overwhelming opinion that Brady always gives us the edge. To take this thought one step further, I believe that getting the running game going is a must. Yes, we've seen examples where they played well without rushing the ball, but eventually that is going to catch up to them--or at least that's my concern. A well balanced team like Pittsburgh, Cincy, or even Denver could take advantage of a torrential downpour, which would neutralize our passing attack, and allow them to chew up some clock.

Another thing I've noticed this season is that the 3) turnovers aren't where they need to be. In 9/14 games, we've produced one or less turnovers. We're just not causing enough, and that needs to change. That's not something that we usually see with the Patriots.

And finally, I worry about 4) some weird combination or parts of issues like poor bounces, poor calls, poor weather (sorry to bring it up again), etc. In the postseason, one big play can ruin the entire game, kind of like the 2010 NYJ loss where we clearly played a better game and yet still lost all of the momentum and looked flat. By the time they started to mount a comeback it was simply too late. I don't suppose there's anything that can be done to avoid something like this, but I figured I'd note it in my doom and gloom response.
 
As you've stated, I believe that the 1) injuries are obviously the biggest wildcard. There's no doubting your opinion that when healthy, we're clearly the cream of the crop.

I do have some major concerns for the 2) running game, though, and your example of the 2012 AFCCG loss to Baltimore is an excellent one to drive the point home. During that game, we had the ball inside of the BAL 35 (normally considered scoring territory) a total of SEVEN times, yet only came away with 13 points due to the windy conditions that were seen that day. Considering that it's Foxborough, I worry that we may see some type of weather conditions which equal the playing field a bit, despite the overwhelming opinion that Brady always gives us the edge. To take this thought one step further, I believe that getting the running game going is a must. Yes, we've seen examples where they played well without rushing the ball, but eventually that is going to catch up to them--or at least that's my concern. A well balanced team like Pittsburgh, Cincy, or even Denver could take advantage of a torrential downpour, which would neutralize our passing attack, and allow them to chew up some clock.

Another thing I've noticed this season is that the 3) turnovers aren't where they need to be. In 9/14 games, we've produced one or less turnovers. We're just not causing enough, and that needs to change. That's not something that we usually see with the Patriots.

And finally, I worry about 4) some weird combination or parts of issues like poor bounces, poor calls, poor weather (sorry to bring it up again), etc. In the postseason, one big play can ruin the entire game, kind of like the 2010 NYJ loss where we clearly played a better game and yet still lost all of the momentum and looked flat. By the time they started to mount a comeback it was simply too late. I don't suppose there's anything that can be done to avoid something like this, but I figured I'd note it in my doom and gloom response.

Brother, that is a lot of worry you are carrying around .

None of your concerns are illegitimate. I definitely wish TOs were better and I most definitely wish we had a running game (let's hope Steven Jackson can come in and perform adequately. That would be a wonderful thing). And the out of our control issues are always a wildcard (acts of god and the like).

-On the acts of god type things, gotta just roll with whatever happens happens on those items. Much like a hypothetical punt snap sailing over the head of Allen and causing a TD (for example). Completely unexpected but falls under the category of anything is possible. I strongly recommend completely disregarding these items in favor of concern for them at the moment they happen if they happen. Same with weather et al.
-On the run game, as much as I would want one (if we had a decent one the Patriots would be a juggernaut), if I had to give up one area of the team for a playoff run it would be the run game. This team over a 3 game PO stretch can clearly be extremely potent with a pass game and a strong D. (again let's hope SJ can give us a servicable conventional run game). Bottom line: I disregard the lack of run game based on the hostroy of this team. A lack of pass rush or a porous secondary would be far more concerning.
- on TOs I agree. Little to say other than only 6 teams have a better +/- on takeaways. What I will reassure with, on a more global view, is the Patriots O and D rankings as a composite are clearly highest among AFC foes. IMHO that far far outweighs a granular stat such as total takeaways.

Not to put more on your plate of conerns but you left off the one I am worried about, pass protection. We've seen in the past that waffling pass protection will sink a game we otherwise woudl walk away from. I'm confident, however, that a combination can be found within the game to get the job done well enough. But for me this is the one that keeps me from booking the tickets to Santa Clara right now...
 
Interestingly, it may have been the depth that was the difference in last years' SB run. Amendola and Vereen were massively important offensively because the playoff defenses the Pats faced limited both Gronk and Edelman at certain times during those games (doesn't mean those guys didn't contribute, but it was the third and fourth options vs other defenses 3d CB and/or S or LB that were exploited regardless of who they lined up against). This offense has proven it's all about match-ups - find it and exploit it.

So the real question is: can White, Chandler, Amendola or Martin fill those roles in the playoffs? Or will we have to go more to "strength vs strength" which is a much tougher long term strategy?
 
Some guys seem to forget how limited the playbook has been since the Edelman/Amendola injuries. The biggest ? is by far the oline and Brady/McDaniels can cover this weakness with a quick/release and the right play calling.

In the end this isn't a mattet about the talent on the roster but mental toughness. The 2014 Pats were a very good team but the mental toughness to overcome 14 point deficits to the Ravens and the Seahawks is what made them a great one.
 
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