Punter MacAfee Throws Pagano Further Under the Snapfu Bus

[A Defiant Goose]

The original intent of the play is to draw a 1st down through a New England penalty. When they drew it up they figured that if New England didn't bite the worst thing that could happen is a DOG penalty. The risk was not that high, the potential loss was low, and the probability that the play would not work was at a 50%.

I fail to see how this is Pagano's fault because in his mind the worst that could happen is a DOG penalty but, the STs coach did not properly prepare and communicate to that particular STs unit that the ball is never to be snapped and to take the DOG penalty.

Because if the backup center thought that he was supposed to snap the ball, then the original intent of the play was for the ball to be snapped. When a ball is snapped to try and catch 12 men on the field or a player offsides, you can't expect to accept said penalty if you're lined up in an illegal formation. You have front row seats to the line of scrimmage and can see all your players not lined up properly, and don't try to fix it before the "should have/shouldn't have been" snap? ****, whether it was supposed to be snapped or not is irrelevant, you practiced the play with the idea that you're gonna snap it to get a penalty. Line up properly FFS!

 

[A Defiant Goose]

Are you a Shmessy mult account, or something? Nothing you said above is even remotely correct, beyond the "final responsibility" card.

Nothing I said is remotely correct? Talk about some class A arrogance. "The Colts weren't lined up properly." CORRECT. "The backup center didn't know the full play." CORRECT (since he wasn't supposed to snap it). Are you just arguing for the sake of arguing?

 

[borg]

I still have no idea what Indy wanted to accomplish. Draw an encroachment penalty? Lose 5 yards for delay of game? Burn their own time out? What could they have gained given the formation we saw? Did they expect no defenders to line up near the ball? I'm dumfounded

 

[The Gr8est]

Here are the 2 things that amuse me the most about this cluster-mess of a play:

1) Even if the morons split wide right were on the LOS, you still have a violation of the new anti-Patriots rule that came about after the Ravens whining like little girls. They have eligible players (by number) in ineligible positions outside the tackle box.

2) If the Patriots ever did something crazy like this, you know it would be much more well run. So if they ever did something off the wall crazy like this and it worked, the whining from other fan bases would be intolerable, and would probably lead to another rule change.

So you're saying it won't be illegal until the Pats fix it and do it correctly.

Agreed.

 

[Boots Electric]

Because if the backup center thought that he was supposed to snap the ball, then the original intent of the play was for the ball to be snapped.

If the Patriots bite on the play which they didn't.

Again, Pagano thinks that the worst case scenario is a DOG penalty and -5 yards. The STs coach is responsible for relaying that to the STs unit. He did not.

 

[shmessy]

I fail to see how this is Pagano's fault because in his mind the worst that could happen is a DOG penalty but, the STs coach did not properly prepare and communicate to that particular STs unit that the ball is never to be snapped and to take the DOG penalty.

Actually he did. MacAfee even pointed that out.

But a KEY MEMBER of that unit was not there that night.

How Pagano could not ask his ST coach if everyone was ready and accounted for for this unconventional play is beyond credulity.

All he had to ask is "Do we have it all lined up with the proper personnel?"

BTW, they usually don't just on a whim throw these into a game of this magnitde. This HAD to have been gameplanned in as a possibility all week long (they even had a few EXTRA DAYS, given that they had the previous Thursday nighter).

Why his ST coach could not inform him that the guy out in the center of the field snapping the ball on the most extreme play of the year has never practiced this play with the unit shows a COMPLETE breakdown in communication. And, yes, the staff communication is 100% on the Head Coach.

 

[Deus Irae]

Nothing I said is remotely correct? Talk about some class A arrogance. "The Colts weren't lined up properly." CORRECT. "The backup center didn't know the full play." CORRECT (since he wasn't supposed to snap it). Are you just arguing for the sake of arguing?

No, I'm discussing the actual points, not the understood background. Your arguments just suck. There are things to get on Pagano about. Assuming McAfee's statement is accurate, this play isn't one of them. This play is/was on the ST coach.

 

[zydecochris]

Anyone that has been following the story knows that Grigson has done everything he can do to undermine Pagano this year. The fact that this story that puts Pagano is such a negative light is on the Colts website speaks for itself. Clearly Grigson has wanted to get rid of Pagano, and this incident gives him the perfect pretext. Thus, I would argue that Pagano's level of responsibility for the play (as opposed to that of his Special Teams Coach) is largely a moot point, I think it is obvious that Pagano will be fired as Indy Head Coach.

Pagano went through a very difficult and serious cancer struggle a few years back, his comeback has been both impressive and inspirational. I think he has largely been a pretty decent coach, it is kind of remarkable that the Colts have done as well as they have with the roster deficiencies they have.

As Ken has pointed out in another thread, it is kind of unfortunate that this play will define his reputation (similar to how the Butt fumble defined Sanchez). I think it will end up benefiting him to get out of that nest of Vipers that is the Indy management organization. Hopefully he will get a job as a defensive coordinator at some less poisonous place.

 

[Danger Zone]

I wish our 4 time Super Bowl winning coach got as much benefit of the doubt as this Pagano is getting by some..

 

[The Gr8est]

But how can this be? Grigson is such an upstanding guy...

Psst, hey Ryan.

Just tell the NFL* that the Colts are deflating their footballs and Pagano is behind it.

Make sure they get his cellphone.

Works like a charm.

 

[A Defiant Goose]

No, I'm discussing the actual points, not the understood background. Your arguments just suck. There are things to get on Pagano about. Assuming McAfee's statement is accurate, this play isn't one of them. This play is/was on the ST coach.

You're wrong and your actual points are wrong and they suck and you suck and nothing you have said makes sense.

 

[A Defiant Goose]

If the Patriots bite on the play which they didn't.

Again, Pagano thinks that the worst case scenario is a DOG penalty and -5 yards. The STs coach is responsible for relaying that to the STs unit. He did not.

Right, but I'm saying up until the last millisecond or whatever that the Patriots didn't bite, the intent was still to snap the ball IF they did. They weren't lined up properly to take advantage of this theoretical offsides penalty. They weren't lined up properly due to poor (specifically ST) coaching. They didn't fix their formation due to poor head coaching by Pagano.

 

[Joker]

The entire stupid ****in' Colts organization shyt all over our head coach, QB, team and fans last season with this idiotic, ridiculous "deflategate" garbage. NOW can you see why this was all so preposterous? These sub-moronic, hickabilly meth freaks and country cornpone sub-morons can't even draw up a goddamned sand lot play correctly....but they sure sucked Mort the Pigsnouted Snort into falling for their ridiculous "2 pounds of air under!!!!" insanity.

Meanwhile, the intergalactic morondell squats in his Maine bunker plotting his next surprise attack on Patriot nation.What a disgrace this league has devolved into.

 

[Boots Electric]

How Pagano could not ask his ST coach if everyone was ready and accounted for for this unconventional play is beyond credulity.

I haven't seen any report stating that Pagano did not ask his STs coach if they were prepared. That's just an assumption. I could assume that Pagano did ask him if they were ready and he said yes.

BTW, they usually don't just on a whim throw these into a game of this magnitde. This HAD to have been gameplanned in as a possibility all week long (they even had a few EXTRA DAYS, given that they had the previous Thursday nighter).

They did practice it except that the original center was hurt during the game.

Why his ST coach could not inform him that the guy out in the center of the field snapping the ball on the most extreme play of the year has never practiced this play with the unit shows a COMPLETE breakdown in communication. And, yes, the staff communication is 100% on the Head Coach.

McAfee said Whalen knew the original intent of the play, because it’s in the playbook, but didn’t know a second option that was added in practice last week because he isn’t usually on the punt team with McAfee.

Who's responsible for preparing the STs unit? The STs coach (Tom McMahon).

 

[A Defiant Goose]

Who's responsible for preparing the STs unit? The STs coach (Tom McMahon).

I would also say the HC is responsible for preparing the team, but I've accepted that you and Deus don't like that explanation. What I will say is, in my opinion, you practice this key play all week and you got a perfect view of the line of scrimmage. That you don't see the obvious illegal formation right in front of you is your bad as a head coach. The original intent of the play was to snap the ball, so you should know that you have to have a legal formation to take advantage of drawing the Pats offsides. If Pagano DID know they were lined up illegally, but bit his tongue because his assumption was that the ball wouldn't be snapped, then it is on both McMahon AND Pagano for a clear miscommunication. I'm not saying the guy should be tied to the stake and burned for it, just saying he's not 100% absolved of the blame.

 

[Boots Electric]

I would also say the HC is responsible for preparing the team, but I've accepted that you and Deus don't like that explanation. What I will say is, in my opinion, you practice this key play all week and you got a perfect view of the line of scrimmage. That you don't see the obvious illegal formation right in front of you is your bad as a head coach. The original intent of the play was to snap the ball, so you should know that you have to have a legal formation to take advantage of drawing the Pats offsides. If Pagano DID know they were lined up illegally, but bit his tongue because his assumption was that the ball wouldn't be snapped, then it is on both McMahon AND Pagano for a clear miscommunication. I'm not saying the guy should be tied to the stake and burned for it, just saying he's not 100% absolved of the blame.

The original intent is to draw a too many men on the field penalty. The offsides penalty was a 2nd option with the original center. Once the backup center came in, the 2nd option was no longer an option and they were supposed to take a DOG penalty if the Patriots did not bite on the too men on the field penalty. That's why you see Pagano asking why he snapped the ball.

 

[A Defiant Goose]

The original intent is to draw a too many men on the field penalty. The offsides penalty was a 2nd option with the original center. Once the backup center came in, the 2nd option was no longer an option and they were supposed to take a DOG penalty if the Patriots did not bite on the too men on the field penalty. That's why you see Pagano asking why he snapped the ball.

Not to try and argue semantics but to me this part is very important. When was the 2nd option (catch them offsides) no longer an option? When the Patriots just didn't jump offsides? You're probably right, at that point Pagano probably assumed that they would just take the DOG and didn't care about the formation. But leading up to that, right to the point where you were trying to draw them offsides (there was still a chance that maybe you could make Bolden jump into the neutral zone when the ball is snapped), they were still lined up in an illegal formation right in front of the coach. He's either to blame or shares the blame on one of two fronts:

Poor communication with his coaching staff (not knowing the ball would be snapped at any point regardless of who the center is)

Not addressing the illegal formation prior to trying to draw the Pats offsides.

 

[PP2]

Here are the 2 things that amuse me the most about this cluster-mess of a play:

1) Even if the morons split wide right were on the LOS, you still have a violation of the new anti-Patriots rule that came about after the Ravens whining like little girls. They have eligible players (by number) in ineligible positions outside the tackle box.

2) If the Patriots ever did something crazy like this, you know it would be much more well run. So if they ever did something off the wall crazy like this and it worked, the whining from other fan bases would be intolerable, and would probably lead to another rule change.

I think tackle box is only something used in relation to the QB (e.g., to judge intentional grounding). Re: formation, I did not notice any players with eligible numbers in that formation, so that portion of the play, at least to me, was legal. However, I am not sure what the rules on eligibility are, when it comes to ST.

 

[fourhour]

So the wasted TO for you is worse than giving the Patriots the ball 1st and 10 at the Colts 30 yard line.

That's pure genius.

Of course the ball is not to be snapped IF THE REGULAR SNAPPER FOR THIS PLAY IS NOT ON THE FIELD! Why even trot it out if the regular snapper for the play is AWOL?

This is a play that was worked on and held in secret for over a year. They chose THIS moment to unleash it. Without the ssnapper who had practiced it. Do ya think BB would ask his ST coach if all the right personnel were ready to play this BEFORE ordering it out there? D'ya THINK so?

That is coaching malpractice of an unimaginable level (for most people other than you, apparently)

Look, everyone here gets your whole "debate-club" schtick. Like the Snapfu, it ain't working.

Maybe BB got something out of Reggie Wayne after all!

 

[Tony2046]

Maybe BB got something out of Reggie Wayne after all!

Lewis was the original QB but........they cut him.

On a side note: My kids are fighting over the remote control again.