The End of Football

[RobertWeathers]

The baby boomers are the worst 'generation' of human beings ever to pollute the planet, so don't feel too bad about your own group.

They enabled "Generation X" so don't knock them too badly.

 

[Deus Irae]

I didn't really consider it much of an argument. It was posturing. "My generation is all lazy and entitled, but not me, I'm not like them. I'm more like older people." In a twist of irony, it was very much the individualist special snowflake position he was trying to condemn.

In truth, I don't find generational analysis particularly insightful or useful at all.

It's clearly both, just as it's clearly information that has to be used in limited ways. But, given your position, there's no need to continue this. We've dealt the point which was in response to your post, and there's no need to go out on further tangents.

 

[primetime]

It's clearly both. But, given your position, there's no need to continue this. You've essentially conceded my earlier point, and there's no need to go out on further tangents.

What point was that?

I'm not even sure you read my explanation above on work, given that you thought I conceded Kontradiction's point. Presumably nuance simply escapes you. People work fewer hours today in some fields, and not in others. Moreover, they're more productive in the hours they work (the only measurement of "working hard" we have, which you apparently find objectionable). It's more nuanced than "people used to work hard, now they don't." And even if this was universally true (it isn't per the data), it would be only what was expected - neither virtue nor vice.

 

[Deus Irae]

What point was that?

I'm not even sure you read my explanation above on work, given that you thought I conceded Kontradiction's point. Presumably nuance simply escapes you. People work fewer hours today in some fields, and not in others. Moreover, they're more productive in the hours they work (the only measurement of "working hard" we have, which you apparently find objectionable). It's more nuanced than "people used to work hard, now they don't." And even if this was universally true (it isn't per the data), it would be only what was expected - neither virtue nor vice.

Nuances don't escape me. You conceded the point while trying to use productivity as a buffer.

And, again, you know better than to use straight productivity as a measure of hard work when comparing disparate situations and eras. It's about as stupid as one can get.

 

[primetime]

Nuances don't escape me. You conceded the point while trying to use productivity as a buffer.

And, again, you know better than to use straight productivity as a measure of hard work when comparing disparate situations and eras. It's about as stupid as one can get.

And you know that's because "hard work" is a normative statement. It has no objective value. It's posturing.

 

[Deus Irae]

And you know that's because "hard work" is a normative statement. It has no objective value. It's posturing.

I can be a hell of a lot more productive delivering papers by car as an adult than I can be delivering papers on foot as a young child. It doesn't mean I'm working harder.

I can be a lot more productive raising crops by using modern machinery, seeds and techniques than I can be using a pair of oxen and a heavy plow to prepare a field for use with old, less productive seed. Again, it doesn't mean I'm working harder.

Your arguments aren't even reaching "Get off my lawn!" levels, but that's essentially all they are.

 

[Kontradiction]

"Rid the world of tyranny." I think you mean fascism. Tyranny is still around, and the Greatest Generation happily exported a great deal of it, or have we forgotten Pinochet, Shah Pahlavi, Saddam Hussein, Castelo Branco, etc.

I meant both. That era brought about some of the greatest tyrants with some of the most vast modern (at the time) military power the world had ever seen at their disposal. Yes, you're correct that tyrants still exist. But do they exist on the level of a Hitler, a Tojo, or a Hirohito? No. Saddam was on the run within months after ground troops arrived. Hitler opened a two front war against two superpowers and lasted longer before Soviet troops pillaged and raped Berlin. The tyranny that the greatest generation rid the world of had the power to completely reshape the world. I'm not so sure you can make the same claim about Saddam. That said, you're probably right about the use of the word "Fascism" being more appropriate here.

"The advancement of difference races." Insofar as we consider the Civil Rights movement here, this was generally led by a generation too young to have fought in Second World War. Martin Luther King was 15 on D-Day. The later 1940s and 1950s are usually looked at as the origins of the so-called urban crisis - in large part due to postwar prosperity, suburbanization, education (through the GI Bill) that was not shared by black people. That same generation fought to roll back all these advances, too.

The Post-War Cohort has a timeline of 1928-1945. Dr. King was born in 1929. He can safely be included with the generation we're talking about even if he was only 16 by the time the Imperial Japanese surrendered.

"Worked hard." I'm afraid this is contradicted by statistics. Productivity today is much higher than it was in the 1950s (real wages, meanwhile, have stagnated). You could say that productivity is much more capital-intensive today, but that was true of the 1950s compared to, say, the 1880s as well. And no one is saying the days of people dying at 35 when their lungs dissolved from the coal mines were a golden generation.

Productivity does not = hard work.

"Put measures in place to prevent depressions." An odd claim, being that we just came out of the most intense since the 1930s. You could argue that the social safety net has made the periodic recession cycle less of a humanitarian disaster, but this was largely the work of the 1930s and later 1960s. It, too has been partly dismantled.

What we just came out of was a bad recession, not a depression. Though it was bad, you don't see people living out of cardboard boxes in Bush or Obamavilles. Further, I was actually referring to the numerous government programs put into place, more strict government regulation over banks, and the creation of the FDIC.

 

[Kontradiction]

I didn't really consider it much of an argument. It was posturing. "My generation is all lazy and entitled and these things I consider bad, but not me, I'm not like them. I'm more like older people, who did these things I consider good." In a twist of irony, it was very much the individualist special snowflake position he was trying to condemn.

In truth, I don't find generational analysis particularly insightful or useful at all.

This is a straw man. I didn't make any of claims that you've just attributed to me. As a matter of fact, I lumped myself in with my generation on several occasions.

 

[primetime]

I meant both. That era brought about some of the greatest tyrants with some of the most vast modern (at the time) military power the world had ever seen. Yes, you're correct that tyrants still exist. But do they exist on the level of a Hitler, a Tojo, or a Hirohito? No. Saddam was on the run within months after ground troops arrived. Hitler opened a two front war against two superpowers and lasted longer before Soviet troops pillaged and raped Berlin. The tyranny that the greatest generation rid the world of had the power to completely reshape the world. I'm not so sure you can make the same claim about Saddam. That said, you're probably right about the use of the word "Fascism" being more appropriate here.

The victory over fascism was no small task, though, to be fair, the Red Army was the decisive force there.

As for other tyrants, Saddam was in power, and actively supported by the US, for over a decade. Something like a million people died in the Iran-Iraq War. My point was less about tyranny in general, and more that there was a very substantial number of dictators who were explicitly and actively supported by the US, if not put in power, during the time period you're referring to as a sort of golden age (for what it's worth, in terms of improving living standards in the Western world, I won't argue with that characterization).

Also to be fair, the worst of the murderous tyrants in that period, Mao and Pol Pot, the US had little or nothing to do with.

The Post-War Cohort has a timeline of 1928-1945. Dr. King was born in 1929. He can safely be included with the generation we're talking about even if he was only 16 by the time the Imperial Japanese surrendered.

Fair enough. White people of that generation were also involved in fighting the Civil Rights Movement, of course.

Productivity does not = hard work.

The definition of hard work seems to be normative, then, if we eliminate all discussion of objective measures (hours worked, productivity). The best we could do here is trade anecdotes, and I'm not sure that will get us very far.

What we just came out of was a bad recession, not a depression. Though it was bad, you don't see people living out of cardboard boxes in Bush or Obamavilles. Further, I was actually referring to the numerous government programs put into place, more strict government regulation over banks, and the creation of the FDIC.

There's no agreed upon definition of depression (a recession is negative growth for 2 consecutive quarters), but "bad recession" would seem to be the closest thing to it. As for the welfare state, most of that was put into place in the New Deal in order to deal with the Recession, though you're correct that some of it was under the Johnson administration.

Now that you've expanded on your argument I find a lot less to quibble with, while noting it's important to take into consideration the general thrust of geopolitics and such at the time. No generation exists outside its own context.

 

[BTTA]

While we are at it, is there any scientific basis for th 8-9 hour workday? I find that I am really effective for around 6 hours of it most of the time.

The research I've seen says that we are able to do complex mental tasks for 3-4 hours a day; after that, most of us are on auto pilot.

Don't know about research on physical tasks.

 

[PatsFanInVa]

 

[PatsFanInVa]

You won't like this PFiVA...but you and I are alike in this respect. I struggle passively listening for 8 hours. I'm at my company's national sales meeting this week. I had to fight off the nods yesterday afternoon! One thing that helps me....avoid carbs or minimize them if you can. You may be a bit hypo-glycemic which makes you crash and hour after lunch.

Yeah, there is individual "sit still" tolerance, there is a generational factor, and there is something we overlook: there are ways to engage a class or an audience -- at least for chunks of an hour or two. It's become as much science as art.

Teachers who can do this are certainly highly skilled professionals and should be paid as such. We ought to truly prepare our teachers on engagement techniques, because that's the job. It should be hard as hell to get a teaching degree, and then it should be worthwhile getting one (i.e., they should be high performing, and if they're doing it right, they should be highly paid.)

 

[BradyFTW!]

I'm a millenial, and really don't get the millenial hate. We've had it easier than our grandparents, a lot tougher than our parents, and we've made do with the hand we're dealt. Trying to read much more into it than that just seems pointless. The general trends say a lot of things about us, some really good, some really bad, some generally neutral.

There are a lot of things I can't stand about the direction that society is heading in, but I don't think that's really a millenial thing. It's partly millenials, partly the WW2 generation dying off, and partly a bunch of other stuff. If I was inclined to 'blame' a generation for the state of the world today, I guess it would be the baby boomers, but again... what's the point? Doesn't accomplish anything, and anytime you're speaking on such a generalized level you'll at best still be wrong about as often as you're right.

The WW2 generation was pretty awesome though. I was pretty much raised by grandfather, who was a WW2 vet. Global war is the kind of thing that really shapes how entire generations see the world, and I think. Once you've liberated concentration camps, I guess it gives you a whole different perspective on the kind of things people are capable of if they give in to the worst parts of human nature.

 

[PatriotsReign]

What a ridiculous thing to say.

Why do you think it's ridiculous?

I'll challenge you to find a problem you can blame a generation for Dues.

We can't blame slavery, prejudice, war or economic crisis on any generation, that's for sure.

Societies and the human species evolve (and devolve) as one through various processes.

I can assure you you that personally no one can blame me for any of the above.

Generations never act collectively. So I'll turn your reply around and state I believe the idea that one can blame or give credit to a generation is ridiculous.

 

[1960Pats]

It seems like this thread has evolved from the end of football to the end of society. Maybe those two are related.

I feel lucky to have been raised in the 50s and 60s. Without a college degree, I was able to get a job, buy a house, get married and raise a family. We were even able to have my wife stay at home until the kids had reached their middle teens. And then I got to retire in my late 50s with two pensions.

Of all of the generations that I have observed, it's my children and grandchildren who will have the most difficulty in pulling that same thing off.

 

[Deus Irae]

Why do you think it's ridiculous?

I'll challenge you to find a problem you can blame a generation for Dues.

We can't blame slavery, prejudice, war or economic crisis on any generation, that's for sure.

Societies and the human species evolve (and devolve) as one through various processes.

I can assure you you that personally no one can blame me for any of the above.

Generations never act collectively. So I'll turn your reply around and state I believe the idea that one can blame or give credit to a generation is ridiculous.

There are all sorts of things I can blame a generation for, Reign, just as there are all sorts of things I can blame children for, or adults for, or whites for, or blacks for, or men for, or women for, etc...

It's understood that, when you classify enormous groups, you're almost never talking about 100% of those enormous groups. Well, it's understood except by those who get offended by the discussion, usually because their group is being targeted, as seems to be the case with you here.

 

[PatsWickedPissah]

It seems like this thread has evolved from the end of football to the end of society. Maybe those two are related.

I feel lucky to have been raised in the 50s and 60s. Without a college degree, I was able to get a job, buy a house, get married and raise a family. We were even able to have my wife stay at home until the kids had reached their middle teens. And then I got to retire in my late 50s with two pensions.

Of all of the generations that I have observed, it's my children and grandchildren who will have the most difficulty in pulling that same thing off.

Agreed. My postwar generation had it easier than my father's and easier than young working families today.

What started out as a light hearted troll on SF's young players has evolved.
The law of unanticipated consequences

 

[Galeb]

What started out as a light hearted troll on SF's young players has evolved.
The law of unanticipated consequences

Either that or the law of uninhibited incontinence.

 

[Clonamery]

Either that or the law of uninhibited incontinence.

Ohhhhh, a not so Great deGENERATIve.

 

[QuantumMechanic]

Add that to the fact that college tuition is crippling people the second they enter the workforce with insane debt, on top of an economy that continues to see record gains and profits for corporations but a fraction of that is actually going to employees. I know lots of people that went to college for 4-6 years and can't find a job in their field and are working retail or as a waitress/waiter, barely staying afloat working their ass off.

What are their degrees in? "They went to college for 4-6 years and can't find a job in their field" is, without more context, totally meaningless. To take a sarcastic example, if someone with a degree akin to Pre-Medieval Feminine Mystic Literary Studies can't find a job, (a) I'm not surprised, and (b) I don't have much sympathy.

I don't think it's entitled to want to work hard like our parents did before us and achieve the American dream of owning a modest house to raise a family in.. that dream is significantly harder to achieve now, even with a decent job

I think the post-WW2 years (even into the late 1960s) are an economic anomaly and not (as the blues would have it) the normal state of the world. Why? Because America's industrial competitors were literally blown to bits, leaving us as the only game in town for quite some time.