Camp Battle at WR - Kenbrell Thompkins vs Josh Boyce

[strngplyr]

All due respect DI but I cannot wrap my head around athletic metrics every being meaningless to a professional athlete. It shows capabilities, if that is every reached is determined in play but when you have a player like Boyce with a 4.34 forty yard dash you have to feel more optimistic about him than you do a player like TJ Moe.

Who do these atrocious numbers remind you of?

Height: 73
Weight: 216
40yd Dash: 4.72
20yd Dash: 2.77
10yd Dash: 1.61
Vertical Jump: 33.5
Broad Jump: 114
20yd Shuttle: 4.33
Three Cone: 7.35


Who do these fantastic numbers remind you of?

Height: 73 inches
Weight: 204
40 Yrd Dash: 4.40
20 Yrd Dash: 2.52
10 Yrd Dash: 1.50
225 Lb. Bench Reps: 16
Vertical Jump: 37
Broad Jump: 114
20 Yrd Shuttle: 4.34
3-Cone Drill: 6.82


One of them is Taylor Price, who has 5 career receptions for 80 yards and has played a total of 6 games.

The other is Anquan Boldin, who has 857 receptions for 11,344 yards and 65 touchdowns over 156 games.

Measureables don't show what a player is capable of, they show how much of an athlete a player is wearing underwear. A receiver either gets the game or he doesn't, a 3 second forty won't save him if he can't beat press coverage and run the route he's supposed to.

Edit: DI beat me to it.

 

[supafly]

It doesn't show game capabilities. That's one of the misleading things about it. It shows what a guy can do in his underwear, in a 'sterile' environment, with little to no other action going on at the same time. The NFL isn't played that way. What you're doing with the numbers is an even more premature version of looking at OTAs and deciding that rookies are sure-fire HOFers.

Especially when you add in our fairly complex system to boot. I have a feeling that Belichick would take a guy who is intelligent and able to pick up the system 10/10 times, even if that means sacrificing a solid 40 yard dash time.

One other thing to consider is that there is a reason these guys are going undrafted, despite their freakish combine measurables. As you say, the combine numbers are only a small portion of the pie. We've seen some great numbers come here and totally fail miserably, especially at the position of WR.

 

[Brady6]

Who do these atrocious numbers remind you of?

Height: 73
Weight: 216
40yd Dash: 4.72
20yd Dash: 2.77
10yd Dash: 1.61
Vertical Jump: 33.5
Broad Jump: 114
20yd Shuttle: 4.33
Three Cone: 7.35


Who do these fantastic numbers remind you of?

Height: 73 inches
Weight: 204
40 Yrd Dash: 4.40
20 Yrd Dash: 2.52
10 Yrd Dash: 1.50
225 Lb. Bench Reps: 16
Vertical Jump: 37
Broad Jump: 114
20 Yrd Shuttle: 4.34
3-Cone Drill: 6.82


One of them is Taylor Price, who has 5 career receptions for 80 yards and has played a total of 6 games.

The other is Anquan Boldin, who has 857 receptions for 11,344 yards and 65 touchdowns over 156 games.

Measureables don't show what a player is capable of, they show how much of an athlete a player is wearing underwear. A receiver either gets the game or he doesn't, a 3 second forty won't save him if he can't beat press coverage and run the route he's supposed to.

Edit: DI beat me to it.

That is an anomaly. Do you really want to argue that athletic measurements do not matter to professional athletes? That is sort of like saying a medical degree doesn't matter for a doctor once the see their first patient.

Is it the end all be all, no of course not but they would not have combines and pro days if they did not serve a significant purpose.

In addition you like DI are taking my post out of context. The discussion I was having with another poster made the athletic metrics relevant.

 

[Bruins29]

That is an anomaly. Do you really want to argue that athletic measurements do not matter to professional athletes? .

It is not even arguable. They dont matter. That is what everyone is trying to tell you. These numbers used in the context you are trying to use them are meaningless.

Just as having medical degree dosent mean you are a good doctor. Nor does it guarantee that a degree from an Ivy League school is going to guarantee a better operation than one performed by a doctor that is from a non ivy league school.

But if it makes you feel better you can post all the combine numbers you want and continue to defend it.

 

[Brady6]

It is not even arguable. They dont matter. That is what everyone is trying to tell you. These numbers used in the context you are trying to use them are meaningless.

Just as having medical degree dosent mean you are a good doctor. Nor does it guarantee that a degree from an Ivy League school is going to guarantee a better operation than one performed by a doctor that is from a non ivy league school.

But if it makes you feel better you can post all the combine numbers you want and continue to defend it.

You do not even understand the context I was using them in. Mayo said Boyce had a similar skill set to Harvin, I posted the combine numbers. Explain to me how that doesn't make sense?

 

[Bruins29]

You do not even understand the context I was using them in. Mayo said Boyce had a similar skill set to Harvin, I posted the combine numbers. Explain to me how that doesn't make sense?

So everyone with the same combine numbers has the same skill set?

 

[strngplyr]

You do not even understand the context I was using them in. Mayo said Boyce had a similar skill set to Harvin, I posted the combine numbers. Explain to me how that doesn't make sense?

Measureables and skillsets are two entirely different things.

 

[mayoclinic]

Mayo said Boyce had a similar skill set to Harvin, I posted the combine numbers. Explain to me how that doesn't make sense?

To clarify, I said that Boyce had similar "athleticism and versatility" to Harvin. In the best case scenario, I think he could develop into a Harvin-like weapon, and I'm personally fairly bullish on Boyce and encouraged by reports so far, but he clearly has a ways to go before that athleticism and versatility actually translates into Harvin's "skill set" on the field. It wouldn't shock me to see him develop into that kind of weapon, but it's certainly not a given at this point.

 

[RayClay]

People need to get off the band wagon of trying to cut Slater cause it will never happen. Just ask yourself what is more valuable if it comes down to it. A 6th (or 7th) WR that will likely not see the field but be good emergency depth or one of the best STers in the NFL?

I don't believe there's a bandwagon, just a rusty wheelbarrow with a bad wheel. A couple people responded to a post I made sarcastically about Slater being on the WR depth chart is all.

 

[patchick]

It doesn't show game capabilities. That's one of the misleading things about it. It shows what a guy can do in his underwear, in a 'sterile' environment, with little to no other action going on at the same time. The NFL isn't played that way. What you're doing with the numbers is an even more premature version of looking at OTAs and deciding that rookies are sure-fire HOFers.

I'm a big believer in measurables -- for PROJECTION purposes. The "underwear olympics" are genuinely valuable in PROJECTING how a player will fare at something they haven't done before, e.g. face NFL competition or play a different position. Take Julian Edelman, who was drafted as a receiver based in large part on his extraordinary quickness measurables.

But I'll bet nobody asked Edelman to run a 3-cone before re-signing as a free agent.

Josh Boyce's measurables suggest what kind of player he could become, if he succeeds. Percy Harvin has succeeded.

 

[Huckleberry1]

I'm a big believer in measurables -- for PROJECTION purposes. The "underwear olympics" are genuinely valuable in PROJECTING how a player will fare at something they haven't done before, e.g. face NFL competition or play a different position. Take Julian Edelman, who was drafted as a receiver based in large part on his extraordinary quickness measurables.

But I'll bet nobody asked Edelman to run a 3-cone before re-signing as a free agent.

Josh Boyce's measurables suggest what kind of player he could become, if he succeeds. Percy Harvin has succeeded.

Agree completely, trying to use combine numbers after a player has been in the pros for a couple of years is as dumb as it gets. I will take the kind of analysis Kyed did on Browner every time over the PFF approach.

 

[Nunchucks]

Some players will actually play faster than their measureables indicate, while others will actually play slower. Once the pads go on and things are for real, it is a whole different ball game.

Numbers are great for projecting, but once they are on the field playing against NFL competition, we can use the eyeball test to evaluate how fast and physical they truly are. Stuff like vision, physicality, innate ability to take the right angles, and of course shake 'n' bake skills cannot be projected with measureables.

I like Boyce, but he is no Percy Harvin. All you have to do is watch Harvin play and you can see there is quite a difference.

 

[mayoclinic]

I like Boyce, but he is no Percy Harvin. All you have to do is watch Harvin play and you can see there is quite a difference.

I don't think we can make any judgments about what Boyce is or isn't at this point. It's too early. He has the athletic ability, by all accounts he's made huge progress from last year, and he's putting in the work. That's enough for me right now. We'll know what he is or isn't soon enough.

 

[Brady6]

Measureables and skillsets are two entirely different things.

While there is more to a skillset than athletic measurables I would not say they are two totally different things. Being able to run a forty in 4.3 seconds is a skill, having a vertical of 38” is a skill.

 

[Brady6]

So everyone with the same combine numbers has the same skill set?

No but if you are trying to project a player then it is one component that you can look at to determine what type of player they could develop into based on their athletic ability.

I am not so arrogant that I am going to sit here and say my “eye test” has determined what a player is or is not, I am going to look at the measurables, the college production, and the reports from practice and OTAs. If you and others want to rely solely on what you see the player do that is your choice, but I am more than comfortable relying on combine results to gauge a players potential.

Clowney was draft #1 overall in large part because of what he can do athletically; the Patriots largely based on his athletic ability drafted Jamie Collins last year. A professional athlete’s ability athletically is something that is weighed heavily when drafting and projecting players. If you want to list the anomalies, the players who beat the odds and went on to be great despite poor workouts that is fine, but more times than not the players with good workout numbers equate to good NFL players and the players without them do not.

 

[RayClay]

I don't think anyone should rule out Thomkins. He's raw, but has a unique ability to get open, it seems to me.

OTAs are passing camps, so receivers get a lot of looks. From Reiss's chat...

Thompkins stepped in and ran quite a few routes alongside Julian Edelman and Danny Amendola as more of that outside presence. At one point, Tom Brady connected with him and was so fired after the play that he went up to him and butted his helmet with his own helmet.

Chat with Mike Reiss | ESPN SportsNation

 

[Marqui]

Being able to run a forty in 4.3 seconds is a skill, having a vertical of 38” is a skill.

They're not football skills, which is what I think his point was.

 

[RayClay]

While there is more to a skillset than athletic measurables I would not say they are two totally different things. Being able to run a forty in 4.3 seconds is a skill, having a vertical of 38” is a skill.

Neither is true. Those are abilities. Cheetas aren't fast because they go to speed school. You can improve on your running ability, but you are limited by your physical makeup.

Catching a football in the NFL is a skill. Jerry Rice, due to his hard work, had more skill than natural ability as a receiver.

 

[Brady6]

Neither is true. Those are abilities. Cheetas aren't fast because they go to speed school. You can improve on your running ability, but you are limited by your physical makeup.

Catching a football in the NFL is a skill. Jerry Rice, due to his hard work, had more skill than natural ability as a receiver.

There is an extremely fine line between "skill" and "abilities" often times they work in conjunction with one another.

 

[Brady6]

They're not football skills, which is what I think his point was.

They are athletic abilities and the NFL is an athletic competition. An investment of resources would indicate significance and the economics behind the combine indicate that it has importance.