The Secondary

[mgteich]

I think Arrington does really need to move to safety - much for the same reasons DMac moved. Arrington does not backpeddle well and does not track the ball. Everything he has done well has been with the play of the game and the ball being in front of him. Because of his slot corner experience, he may well be an excellent strong safety - much more so than Chung or Wilson. And for the first 4 weeks, I think our top 3 CBs are Revis, Dennard and Ryan, so getting the best SS is very important.

A large number of posters agree with you. On the other hand, Belichick signed what he thinks is one of the very best nickel backs in the league to a contract of $4M a year.

 

[MadMartigan]

Eric Berry is a Strong Safety, though he can play FS, too. Berry is too good of a player to just leave hanging out deep on 50% of the plays.

I always thought he played the Free safety role but, ok I see that point of we could use his skills just like many of the other teams could. I wonder though with all the signings, we would moving to a Cover 1 where the Strong safety would be more for run support and covering the tight end? If that is the case then why as it would be a lot of Money to put to a player who would be as important as others and Belichick didn't seem to concerned with getting one through the draft.

I just would really like to ensure we bring back DMc and Revis after next year and this wuld pretty much handcuff is any pursuit of them both maybe 1.

I would rather keep McCourty than go after Berry even with the talent he is. Keep our own before getting someone else and in this case the own is really good

Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.
Albert Einstein

 

[MadMartigan]

I think the battle between Chung, Ebner, and Tavon will be interesting. I think Wilson and Ebner have the edge on Chung in terms of durability and come cheaper. They have a decent chance to show that they are equally marginally reliable in coverage and thereby keep their jobs. I don't have high hopes (couldya tell?), but given a third year, maybe they'll have figured something out.

I would think that Chung is on the Veteran Min. And if any of them had a high cap hit it would Wilson wouldn't it as he was a 2nd rounder and that would be more than either Ebner or Chung

 

[RayClay]

I would think that Chung is on the Veteran Min. And if any of them had a high cap hit it would Wilson wouldn't it as he was a 2nd rounder and that would be more than either Ebner or Chung

Chung isn't making vet minimum.

 

[mgteich]

OK, let's see if cap effect makes a difference to you.

EBNER has an avoidable salary of $570K.

CHUNG has an avoidable $920K ($740K salary +$180K roster bonus).

WILSON has an avoidable salary of $773K. Because of the amortization, it would cost him more to be cut, but that really doesn't matter. We could avoid $773K of new money.
===================

IMHO, Ebner is a bargain for his role as a special teamer.

All three could stick, with Thomas on the Practice Squad. It would seem that if Ryan looks good at safety, there is no reason to keep Chung. Wilson did fine as a special teamer for the past two years.

I would think that Chung is on the Veteran Min. And if any of them had a high cap hit it would Wilson wouldn't it as he was a 2nd rounder and that would be more than either Ebner or Chung

 

[supafly]

I absolutely love your roster prediction threads, mg.

I do think that it's just much too early right now to make anything of an informed prediction though, and I'm sure you'd agree with that as well. We'll just have to see how the camp competition plays out, of course.

I'm starting to buy into the hype with Thomas though, and I really don't see Ebner as being a lock either.

 

[AzorianPats]

A thread about the secondary seems an appropriate place for this, against the Lions how would you rather see the team line up:

A) Golden Tate takes a trip to Revis island and Megatron gets Browner w/ McCourty over the top.
B) Megatron takes a trip to Revis island (possible Safety help too?) and Dennard covers Golden Tate, Browner takes one of Ebron/Pettigrew.

B. I always want our best CB taking on their number 1 WR.

 

[mgteich]

I absolutely love your roster prediction threads, mg.

I do think that it's just much too early right now to make anything of an informed prediction though, and I'm sure you'd agree with that as well. We'll just have to see how the camp competition plays out, of course.

I'm starting to buy into the hype with Thomas though, and I really don't see Ebner as being a lock either.

I try to balance roster "predictions" with discussions of camp competition. I may have more locks than others, but we all know that there is always competition for the bottom dozen roster spots, as well as changes due to new additions and because of injuries.

For myself, these predictions simply mean that this would be the roster if the season started today. Obviously, posters have their binkies and different approaches to the value of low level talent (6th rounders, 7th rounders and UDFA's). Posters are sure that their favorites will make the team. Well, there are so many that 2-3 do end up making the team. And yes, I have a favorite among them this year: Halapio. Thomas may make it as a developmental #10 DB. I just don't think he is good enough to beat out both Wilson and Chung for a special teams spot.

That being said, for me, we have 2 special-teams "only" players: Slater and Ebner. I don't see either being beaten out for those positions, although it certainly "could" happen. As has been the case for years, Belichick considers a couple of special teamers as starters and key players, while posters consider these special teamers as bottom of the roster players. I think that we would be better off analytically if we included these 2 special teams specialists with the specialists: K, P, LS.

 

[Kontradiction]

A large number of posters agree with you. On the other hand, Belichick signed what he thinks is one of the very best nickel backs in the league to a contract of $4M a year.

Arrington is a good nickel corner, but that contract is an atrocity.

 

[pencilneckgeek]

A large number of posters agree with you. On the other hand, Belichick signed [Arrington, who] he thinks is one of the very best nickel backs in the league to a contract of $4M a year.

Or did at the time. He's certainly durable and does his job adequately in the slot and on ST, when needed. We'll find out next year, when it's cheaper to cut him than to keep paying him $3M per year, whether Belichick still feels that way.

 

[supafly]

I try to balance roster "predictions" with discussions of camp competition. I may have more locks than others, but we all know that there is always competition for the bottom dozen roster spots, as well as changes due to new additions and because of injuries.

For myself, these predictions simply mean that this would be the roster if the season started today. Obviously, posters have their binkies and different approaches to the value of low level talent (6th rounders, 7th rounders and UDFA's). Posters are sure that their favorites will make the team. Well, there are so many that 2-3 do end up making the team. And yes, I have a favorite among them this year: Halapio. Thomas may make it as a developmental #10 DB. I just don't think he is good enough to beat out both Wilson and Chung for a special teams spot.

That being said, for me, we have 2 special-teams "only" players: Slater and Ebner. I don't see either being beaten out for those positions, although it certainly "could" happen. As has been the case for years, Belichick considers a couple of special teamers as starters and key players, while posters consider these special teamers as bottom of the roster players. I think that we would be better off analytically if we included these 2 special teams specialists with the specialists: K, P, LS.

I am fully on board with you re: Halapio. He played through a torn pectoral injury, was a team captain, and some of the scouting reports have claimed that he's tough to beat one vs one. As Belichick said, I think we're a bit surprised that he was still there at that point, so it's appearing to be some good value.

As far as Tavon Wilson and Patrick Chung go, I'm definitely not seeing both of those players stick on the 53 man roster myself. Of course I could be quite wrong in the end. It will all depend on how the other prospects look on STs. If they can get anywhere close, there's a decent chance that one of those two could certainly be cut. Hell, I'm still not convinced that Chung is much more than camp fodder at this point in time. These situations will work out as time moves on.

 

[RayClay]

2008

team’s third-leading tackler (92) as well as program’s fourth-best tackler of all time (384)

Tied for second in the country in consecutive starts (51) ... First stepping onto the collegiate practice field at the age of 16, he was difficult to pull off the field due to his insistence of playing on the majority of special teams in addition to the line of scrimmage ... ______ two-time special teams player of the year and first-team all-conference special teams honoree participated in more than 100 plays on four occasions, including 118 snaps vs. Purdue and Arizona

2007

Honored as the ______ outstanding special teams player (Gordon E. Wilson Award) following the conclusion of the regular season ... Remained on the field for 106 plays against Arizona State as he participated in better than 90 plays in seven games ... Blocked his first punts as a collegian against Houston and at Washington, and added the role as a kickoff returner in his final four games of the season, averaging 22.3 yards on nine returns ... .Included was a 40-yard runback at UCLA as well as a 32-yard return at Arizona.

2006

Lent a hand at fielding punts late in the season, returning the first attempt of his career 59 yards for a touchdown against Washington ... Finished the year averaging 12.1 yards on 14 returns (170 yards) ... The 13-game starter took part in more than 80 snaps in four games, led by 89 plays at Fresno State ... Received team’s special teams player-of-the-game plaudits for his performance against the Huskies.

2006

Picked as the league’s defensive freshman of the year (The Sporting News), he led the team in tackles against Washington (11) and Washington State (9) while being credited in double figures on four occasions ... Included were 12 stops in post-season play vs. Oklahoma ... Yet no performance was better than equaling his collegiate-best 12 tackles vs. USC as he was named squad’s special teams player of the week

 

[supafly]

2008

team’s third-leading tackler (92) as well as program’s fourth-best tackler of all time (384)

Tied for second in the country in consecutive starts (51) ... First stepping onto the collegiate practice field at the age of 16, he was difficult to pull off the field due to his insistence of playing on the majority of special teams in addition to the line of scrimmage ... ______ two-time special teams player of the year and first-team all-conference special teams honoree participated in more than 100 plays on four occasions, including 118 snaps vs. Purdue and Arizona

2007

Honored as the ______ outstanding special teams player (Gordon E. Wilson Award) following the conclusion of the regular season ... Remained on the field for 106 plays against Arizona State as he participated in better than 90 plays in seven games ... Blocked his first punts as a collegian against Houston and at Washington, and added the role as a kickoff returner in his final four games of the season, averaging 22.3 yards on nine returns ... .Included was a 40-yard runback at UCLA as well as a 32-yard return at Arizona.

2006

Lent a hand at fielding punts late in the season, returning the first attempt of his career 59 yards for a touchdown against Washington ... Finished the year averaging 12.1 yards on 14 returns (170 yards) ... The 13-game starter took part in more than 80 snaps in four games, led by 89 plays at Fresno State ... Received team’s special teams player-of-the-game plaudits for his performance against the Huskies.

2006

Picked as the league’s defensive freshman of the year (The Sporting News), he led the team in tackles against Washington (11) and Washington State (9) while being credited in double figures on four occasions ... Included were 12 stops in post-season play vs. Oklahoma ... Yet no performance was better than equaling his collegiate-best 12 tackles vs. USC as he was named squad’s special teams player of the week

I'll bite...but I'm not quite sure where you're going with this, RayClay?

I'm seeing a lot of Pac-12 and an '06 freshman of the year award, so I'm going to guess Pat Chung?

Next, we could go over Tim Tebow's collegiate awards and honors, seeing as how those equated to such an illustrious career at the pro level

The reality is that Patrick Chung looked pretty pathetic in the NFL on the two teams that took chances on him. He's absolutely horrible in pass coverage. Patrick Chung is definitely on the bubble--there's not much doubt about that.

As I said, if anyone else can show any kind of worth on a comparative level for STs, Pat Chung may be exiting rather quickly.

 

[RayClay]

I'll bite...but I'm not quite sure where you're going with this, RayClay?

I'm seeing a lot of Pac-12 and an '06 freshman of the year award, so I'm going to guess Pat Chung?

Next, we could go over Tim Tebow's collegiate awards and honors, seeing as how those equated to such an illustrious career at the pro level

The reality is that Patrick Chung looked pretty pathetic in the NFL on the two teams that took chances on him. He's absolutely horrible in pass coverage. Patrick Chung is definitely on the bubble--there's not much doubt about that.

As I said, if anyone else can show any kind of worth on a comparative level for STs, Pat Chung may be exiting rather quickly.

I'm not here to hype Chung, but how is the rugby player that hardly ever even played defense at pass coverage? The fact is, we have four starting quality corners (IMO) plus Arrington and a coverage safety near all pro. All we need is a SS type role player to go along with Harmon who still has a lot to learn.

Chung was a pretty good SS type and special teams player who hurt his shoulder, really diminishing his strong point.

It's called perspective. If he's healthy, you mean to tell me the players we have there are head and shoulders better? Only because people hate Chung. It's ludicrous to assume Ebner is better in every way when the evidence is Chung was as at least comparable on special teams in college and the pros, despite having to play a ton of minutes in the defense.

If there is one overiding factor on this site, it is the need to demonize players who are less than all pro just because we drafted them, even if a lot is due to injuries,

Fortunately, BB doesn't think that way, which is why he scooped up Chung in a year when he added a good bit of salary and has lots of players soon needing to be resigned.

 

[RayClay]

Next, we could go over Tim Tebow's collegiate awards and honors, seeing as how those equated to such an illustrious career at the pro level

Talk about a ludicrous comparison. Mgteich says Ebner, who doesn't play a position at this time, is indispensable because of the 2-3 years he played on special teams in college and now. He doesn't have to conserve his energy, because he can't play on the defense.

I showed that Chung got special team player of the year, the week, multiple games for four years straight while playing 51 games in a row.

You'd have to deny facts completely to say he couldn't play special teams on a high level while playing spot snaps at safety, if he's healthy.

Of course, his shoulder may be shot, meaning he loses his hitting, his biggest asset.

That we'll see, but just being glib and calling him Tebow is kind of beneath you, I'm sorry to say. I always thought you appreciated a guy could be a role player even if he's not a complete player.

Of course, the alternatives might be guys who won't play a snap in the league, but i guess fairness and perspective can't be taken for granted.

 

[patriot1136]

Was Chung any good at all last year with Philly?

 

[mgteich]

PERSPECTIVE

EBNER
Personally, I don't consider Ebner a safety any more than I consider Slater a wide receiver. Others disagree. For me, we have 2 top special teams only players: Slater and Ebner.

OUR 4th SAFETY
We need a 4th emergency safety (or 3rd if Ryan doesn't work out). For me, that is a competition between Tavon Wilson and Chung, with Chung having the clear edge. Our hope is that neither will have many reps at defensive back. We have our top 7. However, injuries happen. We also are likely to carry a 10th defensive back who could be a special teamer or a developmental position back.

We talk about Chung being the worst starting safety in the league last year. OK, what was Tavon WIlson?

I'm not here to hype Chung, but how is the rugby player that hardly ever even played defense at pass coverage? The fact is, we have four starting quality corners (IMO) plus Arrington and a coverage safety near all pro. All we need is a SS type role player to go along with Harmon who still has a lot to learn.

Chung was a pretty good SS type and special teams player who hurt his shoulder, really diminishing his strong point.

It's called perspective. If he's healthy, you mean to tell me the players we have there are head and shoulders better? Only because people hate Chung. It's ludicrous to assume Ebner is better in every way when the evidence is Chung was as at least comparable on special teams in college and the pros, despite having to play a ton of minutes in the defense.

If there is one overiding factor on this site, it is the need to demonize players who are less than all pro just because we drafted them, even if a lot is due to injuries,

Fortunately, BB doesn't think that way, which is why he scooped up Chung in a year when he added a good bit of salary and has lots of players soon needing to be resigned.

 

[RayClay]

Was Chung any good at all last year with Philly?

Don't know and I don't know if his shoulder ever healed. Philly has had a lot of formerly prominent players not work out in the secondary, so maybe they don't judge or use them right.

There's no doubt coverage isn't Chungs strength, but which safety besides McCourty can cover? I'm just saying that, if healthy, Chung should at least be considered as a role playing in the box type and special teamer compared to very unproven guys for doing both those roles.

 

[RayClay]

PERSPECTIVE

EBNER
Personally, I don't consider Ebner a safety any more than I consider Slater a wide receiver. Others disagree. .

Can't see how anyone disagrees with this.

For me, we have 2 top special teams only players: Slater and Ebner

Well, that's fine, but when safeties go down, like they did in the Carolina Super Bowl, it's better to have an NFL player available, even if coverage isn't his strength, than guys flailing around, like when we had Slater, Idhigbo and Antwuan Molds running around like the Keystone cops.

There is a strange penchant on this board to purge any former draft picks, like the Russians used to purge history books while sending former administrations to Siberia.

Chung had his faults and a bad shoulder injury (I believe) but he was good on special teams and decent at safety while healthy with a good shoulder to hit people with. He certainly has excellent special teams credentials and we're foolish to not even consider him, if healthy, in a limited role for a bargain salary.

How often do we crow sign the beast about some player elsewhere with injury issues, who gets cut after years starting on two teams? Think about it.

He's 26.

 

[AzPatsFan]

Can't see how anyone disagrees with this.



Well, that's fine, but when safeties go down, like they did in the Carolina Super Bowl, it's better to have an NFL player available, even if coverage isn't his strength, than guys flailing around, like when we had Slater, Idhigbo and Antwuan Molds running around like the Keystone cops.

There is a strange penchant on this board to purge any former draft picks, like the Russians used to purge history books while sending former administrations to Siberia.

Chung had his faults and a bad shoulder injury (I believe) but he was good on special teams and decent at safety while healthy with a good shoulder to hit people with. He certainly has excellent special teams credentials and we're foolish to not even consider him, if healthy, in a limited role for a bargain salary.

How often do we crow sign the beast about some player elsewhere with injury issues, who gets cut after years starting on two teams? Think about it.

He's 26.

I say that drafting a SS high, and then expecting him to perform extensive FS deep coverage, is highly unlikely. BB drafted such SS high twice in second rounders Chung and Wilson. Both failed in the deep coverage aspects of RS and LS where you want a combo FS/SS. McCourty a CB/FS succeeded, and Ryan discussed as a CB/FS pre-draft may succeed too. But you don't discard such SS/LB hybrids, you re-purpose them in changed circumstances.

The improved Pass Rush, and better CB coverage, allows them to be little used in what they couldn't do. The usual image of Chung was his arriving a moment too late with deep Safety help. Ditto for Tavon Wilson in his rookie year.

There are many example of players who changed positions and then succeeding. McCourty was moved from CB to FS for example.