Pats moving some south end zone seats

[SB39]

The season ticket holders are not "shareholders". They are a RENTERS.

Buy a PSL, and THEN they would be "shareholders".

The Patriots have, in the past, referred to us as "shareholders." I know it is something I have seen before, though I don't remember specifically when or if the letters we are talking about here used that term. However, if you don't like that term, please take it up with them.

I also hate the idea of turning the end zone into a lounge. Blame the tax code and the deduction for business entertainment and dining expenses. Think that's not the crux of the issue? Just compare US stadiums built in the last 20 years to those built 40-50 years ago. Notice the larger amounts of glass? Notice fewer open air seating? Think it's a coincidence? Now compare US stadiums to stadiums in other countries/tax jurisdictions. I'm not seeing the same walls of glass in foreign stadiums.

The reason why we so many club seats and luxury lounges is because there is demand for it. Teams makes more off those than they do from general admission. I also believe, but don't quote me on this, they get to keep all their luxury box revenues, unlike general admission tickets which goes into the pool to be shared with the whole league. So they get to keep a bigger percentage of a larger amount.

That explains why 20 years ago virtually no one had club seats and now every single team in the league does (once Minnesota opens their new stadium). Even teams with reasonably new facilities, like the Rams who are playing in a stadium that has not yet turned 20, are upset with their current layouts and looking to upgrade or move.

 

[NE_PATS_FAN_54]

we need a double like button. You hit it right on the head. I remember sitting in the metal bleacher seats with a stadium full of drunk rowdy fans...we rarely won. Kraft has done unreal things since he bought the team. Yes, he is out to make money...but we have been winners ever since he bought the team and i kinda like that

Kraft's a great owner, we get that. Nobody is disagreeing with that point. But to treat him like some saint and act like he's beyond reproach is ridiculous.

 

[PatsWickedPissah]

Those who speculated that really bad continuing publicity might induce the Krafts to abandon or modify the location for this fiasco will be proven prescient. Bad move, Bobby!

 

[PatsFanSince74]

I feel badly for those who are affected and who feel that they are being mistreated, especially so for those who supported the team as season ticket holders in the darkest days of a couple of the dreadful decades before Kraft bought the team.

To me, it all depends on how this is done. The people affected should be given reasonable compensation for the inconvenience and an apology for any disruption. If a particular fan decides that the compensation isn't reasonable and/or that the apology inadequate, then that fan will probably decide to turn in his/her season tickets, for which there is a lengthy waiting list.

Kraft must have his reasons for doing this, based on some combination of economics and what he wants to do with the stadium that he owns and built. He's not an absentee owner, but rather started as a season ticket holder himself in a less comfortable setting. So, I assume that there are economic or other legitimate reasons behind this move.

Five trips to the SB in a dozen years is good enough for me. In my book, Kraft can do whatever he decides is in the long term best interests of the franchise, consistent with applicable laws and the NFL's regulations. And, yes, "long term best interests of the franchise" might include an improved cash flow as a result of the new lounge.

 

[PatsFanSince74]

Kraft's a great owner, we get that. Nobody is disagreeing with that point. But to treat him like some saint and act like he's beyond reproach is ridiculous.

That's all true.

On this particular issue, though, there is, in my opinion, no reason to reproach him, assuming that those affected are given reasonable compensation and an apology for the inconvenience.

 

[Mack Herron]

On this particular issue, though, there is, in my opinion, no reason to reproach him, assuming that those affected are given reasonable compensation and an apology for the inconvenience.

I'm going to go out on a limb here and guess that you are one of the fortunate ones who didn't receive an eviction notice? It would be one thing if affected fans could reject the offer and retain their seats, but that is not what is being proposed. Instead, the owner came up with the compensation and is telling displaced fans they can take it or leave it. We already know that some fans are not pleased with the offer despite the proffered compensation (and apology). They have every right to criticize Kraft for this decision.

The reality is that NFL games are increasingly for big business and the wealthy. As economics change the game, the majority of fans must be content to watch on television. The 20,000 hearty souls who used to venture to Schaefer stadium on Sundays in December to freeze on the benches are rapidly becoming extinct in Foxboro.

 

[SB39]

That's all true.

On this particular issue, though, there is, in my opinion, no reason to reproach him, assuming that those affected are given reasonable compensation and an apology for the inconvenience.

You're passing judgment based on an assumption that has no place in reality. One of the articles mentioned the only "compensation" they are getting: Free parking for a year.

Whoop-de-doo.

If you have information that the displaced fans are getting anything more, I would be very interested in reading it. But for now, they really are being screwed.

 

[SB39]

The reality is that NFL games are increasingly for big business and the wealthy. As economics change the game, the majority of fans must be content to watch on television. The 20,000 hearty souls who used to venture to Schaefer stadium on Sundays in December to freeze on the benches are rapidly becoming extinct in Foxboro.

True true true. The irony here is that because the location of the proposed lounge is doing away with some fantastic seats (first 20 rows of the lower end zone), the vast majority of displaced STHers are going to be long-timers. It isn't like they are placing the lounge in section 339, rows 20-30.

 

[captain stone]

Instead of displacing loyal STHs, Kraft should build his new toy within all of that empty space by the lighthouse. Then maybe whatever noise the wine-n-cheesers do make will be kept inside the stadium confines.

 

[AzorianPats]

Instead of displacing loyal STHs, Kraft should build his new toy within all of that empty space by the lighthouse. Then maybe whatever noise the wine-n-cheesers do make will be kept inside the stadium confines.

That makes the most sense, but that would be a lot of working, especially considering that the Patriots entrance to the lockeroom is on that side of the field.

 

[patfanken]

Its good that we are having this discussion. Perhaps the same kind of feedback that initiated this "lounge" in the first place, might be made to save at least some, if not all of those seats for the STH's. If a lounge was deemed necessary to increase revenue, maybe the solution is to find a better place to put it.

I'd be all for a solution that would coincide with a closing of the open end of the stadium and making Gillette a true bowl. So instead of taking seats, they could have their lounge, and actually add a few thousand more

 

[dales804]

I'd be all for a solution that would coincide with a closing of the open end of the stadium and making Gillette a true bowl. So instead of taking seats, they could have their lounge, and actually add a few thousand more

That makes too much sense. Will never happen.

I did send an email to Reiss about this. Waiting to see if he does any article on it or offers an opinion. I just don't see why the Krafts (I know it's about $$$) would want to remove those seats and put a freakin' lounge in. I hope they either nix this plan or move it somewhere (open end by lighthouse!) else.

 

[AzorianPats]

Does any team in the league have end zone lounge seating? Cowboys?

 

[jmt57]

Does any team in the league have end zone lounge seating? Cowboys?

I have seen some end zone "party decks", but the ones that I can think of are all at least half way up between the first and last rows of seating.

 

[PatsFanSince74]

You're passing judgment based on an assumption that has no place in reality. One of the articles mentioned the only "compensation" they are getting: Free parking for a year.

Whoop-de-doo.

If you have information that the displaced fans are getting anything more, I would be very interested in reading it. But for now, they really are being screwed.

I guess the emphasis is on the word "reasonable." Free Parking for a season, tickets elsewhere in the stadium and an acknowledgment by the Patriots that this is an unwelcome move seems reasonable to me.

It's Kraft's stadium, built with his own money, not a massive Municipal Bond (see Lucas Oil Stadium) or a loan from the NFL (see the Meadowlands). He has done an incredible job of transforming the Patriots from a denizen of the lower echelons of NFL teams to one of the most respected and successful franchises in the League as well as in all of global sports in less than two decades.

As I said in my post, I feel badly for those who have been affected, but I am ready to accept that Kraft has a vision of what he wants to do with his Stadium and an understanding of what he needs

I'm going to go out on a limb here and guess that you are one of the fortunate ones who didn't receive an eviction notice? It would be one thing if affected fans could reject the offer and retain their seats, but that is not what is being proposed. Instead, the owner came up with the compensation and is telling displaced fans they can take it or leave it. We already know that some fans are not pleased with the offer despite the proffered compensation (and apology). They have every right to criticize Kraft for this decision.

The reality is that NFL games are increasingly for big business and the wealthy. As economics change the game, the majority of fans must be content to watch on television. The 20,000 hearty souls who used to venture to Schaefer stadium on Sundays in December to freeze on the benches are rapidly becoming extinct in Foxboro.

Those points are all valid and well stated

I'm going to go out on a limb here and guess that you are one of the fortunate ones who didn't receive an eviction notice? It would be one thing if affected fans could reject the offer and retain their seats, but that is not what is being proposed. Instead, the owner came up with the compensation and is telling displaced fans they can take it or leave it. We already know that some fans are not pleased with the offer despite the proffered compensation (and apology). They have every right to criticize Kraft for this decision.

The reality is that NFL games are increasingly for big business and the wealthy. As economics change the game, the majority of fans must be content to watch on television. The 20,000 hearty souls who used to venture to Schaefer stadium on Sundays in December to freeze on the benches are rapidly becoming extinct in Foxboro.

Regarding your first paragraph: While I am one of those used to venture to freeze his butt off in the old stadium, I also think that criticizing a decision is different from reproaching those who made that decision. I didn't say that the fans who have been affected don't have the right to criticize the decision as unfair to themselves, as the group that is affected; in fact, I expressed my empathy with them. But, it is possible for a decision to be unfair to some but also to be the right decision in the context of, in this case, what the Krafts judge is in the best interests of keeping their stadium competitive and generating the Cash Flow that they judge they need to run the facility in the way that they judge best. Given the great things that the Krafts have done with this team, I am willing to give them the benefit of the doubt on this. As I said in my other post, as long as some modest, reasonable compensation is offered, along with an apology that recognizes the inconvenience, I accept their position.

I agree completely with your second paragraph. Broadcast rights have become the gigantic tail that now wags the NFL; televised NFL games are a very, very big business. Keeping stadium venues attractive to a wide range of fans is one of the toughest challenges that the NFL faces today, especially those without a Dome in cold-weather climates. A Lounge for fans who pay a premium for access to it is, I guess, a way that teams are confronting that challenge.

 

[Patsrock]

There is so much room at Gillette to make this club anywhere else besides taking away 1500 STH seats. Take away the stupid opening by the "Lighthouse" Bridge. Make the Lounge above the opening that leads to Pats locker room. Enclose the opening with a roof on it and make it the STH Lounge/Party Deck.

 

[PatsWickedPissah]

There is so much room at Gillette to make this club anywhere else besides taking away 1500 STH seats. Take away the stupid opening by the "Lighthouse" Bridge. Make the Lounge above the opening that leads to Pats locker room. Enclose the opening with a roof on it and make it the STH Lounge/Party Deck.

That's what I do not understand. What is so anathema about those other less disruptive locations that made BK decide that instead 1,500 EZ fans have to be relocated? The loss of any EZ noise could be critical in a game. What would be next? Quiet Please signs on the TV screens so that Muffy's stock portfolio discussions in the new club would not be hampered?

 

[dales804]

And Reiss answered the question I emailed in today's mailbag:

http://m.espn.go.com/nfl/story?storyPage=reissmailbagweek0506

 

[shmessy]

And Reiss answered the question I emailed in today's mailbag:

http://m.espn.go.com/nfl/story?storyPage=reissmailbagweek0506

I like this part from his answer:

".....Crowd noise factor. Let's see how it ultimately plays out, but if it does affect crowd noise negatively, that would be a big disappointment."

In Reiss-speak, that means "The place is ALREADY a morgue, how much quieter can it get????"

 

[PatsDeb]

I had not heard about this until reading of it this morning. Had others? For years I had tix in sec. 123 but with college tuitions, family obligations I moved on.

Many Patriots fans upset about losing seats at Gillette - The Boston Globe

While I don't agree that the Krafts are pit vipers, I do agree that they do what is best for them in terms of making money, not die hard fans. Luckily, the interests of both have been mostly paralell since they took over. They are offering some consolation to those who have to be moved (free parking for a year(about a $400 benefit) and choice of seats elsewhere in the stadium [at their current rate, which may be higher than what the season ticket holder is paying now]), but my question is, if they are having trouble filling club seats, and marketing shows lowly regular season ticket holders like me would pay to belong to a club where you could sit and have a drink, why aren't they using a section of the huge clubs they already have, which are used by the club seat owners? They expanded those just a few years ago. Seems like they could rope off part of each one and use that for their sports bar, rather than upsetting a fairly sizeable group of diehard fans.