Pass Rush specialist?

[RayClay]

Assuming we have needs at WR, OL, LB depth TE, etcetera, we might not be looking to break the bank on a pass rusher.

Of course, getting a premier rusher would be great but age and huge bucks seems to be the impediments. Kony Ealy has a 1st round grade and seems like a good player with good size but, maybe not an impact player and the draft isn't strong in this area IMO (assuming we're ging after 6'3" and better, our ideal).

So, how do we fill? We have our ideal in C. Jones and a good rusher and all around player in Nincovich. We have Collins, but he'll likely have his hands full as a new starter at OLB.

The league has it's Dumervills and Freeney's who are relatively short, but those are the elite, and paid like it. I'm wondering, rather than gamble in the draft or paying big bucks for someone in their mid thirties, can we find some really fast, short guys who washed out because most teams want size and are affordable, after showing rush ability in college?

Since we have the ideal, the utility player and a young 6'6" project in Buchanan who looks disruptive, I think we're ideally situated for a strictly part time mis fit toy with a high motor who's vertically challenged (or lacking in run stopping stoutness).

For every Freeney or Dumervil, there are ten of these guys every draft who become marginal because of limitations mentioned in their all around game.

I'm mostly a Pats fan and admittedly don't keep up on league personnel, especially NFC, but I'm guessing I'm right. Forget ideal height, weight and run stopping, we're talking about a part time specialist who's affordable

 

[mgteich]

So, we've favored short receivers and short corners. Now we should favor a short pass-rushing specialist?

Belichick will sign someone (or two) to compete with Buchanan. I don't expect anyone over vet minimum. A part-time sub is a perfect position for a veteran with a season or two to give.

Assuming we have needs at WR, OL, LB depth TE, etcetera, we might not be looking to break the bank on a pass rusher.

Of course, getting a premier rusher would be great but age and huge bucks seems to be the impediments. Kony Ealy has a 1st round grade and seems like a good player with good size but, maybe not an impact player and the draft isn't strong in this area IMO (assuming we're ging after 6'3" and better, our ideal).

So, how do we fill? We have our ideal in C. Jones and a good rusher and all around player in Nincovich. We have Collins, but he'll likely have his hands full as a new starter at OLB.

The league has it's Dumervills and Freeney's who are relatively short, but those are the elite, and paid like it. I'm wondering, rather than gamble in the draft or paying big bucks for someone in their mid thirties, can we find some really fast, short guys who washed out because most teams want size and are affordable, after showing rush ability in college?

Since we have the ideal, the utility player and a young 6'6" project in Buchanan who looks disruptive, I think we're ideally situated for a strictly part time mis fit toy with a high motor who's vertically challenged (or lacking in run stopping stoutness).

For every Freeney or Dumervil, there are ten of these guys every draft who become marginal because of limitations mentioned in their all around game.

I'm mostly a Pats fan and admittedly don't keep up on league personnel, especially NFC, but I'm guessing I'm right. Forget ideal height, weight and run stopping, we're talking about a part time specialist who's affordable

 

[RayClay]

So, we've favored short receivers and short corners. Now we should favor a short pass-rushing specialist?

Belichick will sign someone (or two) to compete with Buchanan. I don't expect anyone over vet minimum. A part-time sub is a perfect position for a veteran with a season or two to give.

So we're going to sign a great pass rusher over 6'4" for vet minimum to play part time? You're right, I like your idea better. Maybe Jared Allen will play for that money.

 

[mgteich]

Belichick is not signing a "great pass rusher". He has indicated many times (by his actions) that this position isn't a high priority. As Andy has said, Belichick considers this a backup position.

You are suggesting is that we can sign a lower quality pass-rusher at less money. I agree.

So we're going to sign a great pass rusher over 6'4" for vet minimum to play part time? You're right, I like your idea better. Maybe Jared Allen will play for that money.

 

[FoxboroFlyer]

What about Will Smith? He seems like a good fit as a rotational guy.
Wonder what kind of money he'd be looking for?

 

[upstater1]

Assuming we have needs at WR, OL, LB depth TE, etcetera, we might not be looking to break the bank on a pass rusher.

Of course, getting a premier rusher would be great but age and huge bucks seems to be the impediments. Kony Ealy has a 1st round grade and seems like a good player with good size but, maybe not an impact player and the draft isn't strong in this area IMO (assuming we're ging after 6'3" and better, our ideal).

So, how do we fill? We have our ideal in C. Jones and a good rusher and all around player in Nincovich. We have Collins, but he'll likely have his hands full as a new starter at OLB.

The league has it's Dumervills and Freeney's who are relatively short, but those are the elite, and paid like it. I'm wondering, rather than gamble in the draft or paying big bucks for someone in their mid thirties, can we find some really fast, short guys who washed out because most teams want size and are affordable, after showing rush ability in college?

Since we have the ideal, the utility player and a young 6'6" project in Buchanan who looks disruptive, I think we're ideally situated for a strictly part time mis fit toy with a high motor who's vertically challenged (or lacking in run stopping stoutness).

For every Freeney or Dumervil, there are ten of these guys every draft who become marginal because of limitations mentioned in their all around game.

I'm mostly a Pats fan and admittedly don't keep up on league personnel, especially NFC, but I'm guessing I'm right. Forget ideal height, weight and run stopping, we're talking about a part time specialist who's affordable

Kony Ealy ran a 4.96 40 at the combine. Yikes.

How about UNC DE Kareem Martin in the 3rd or 4th round? His cone times are eye-poppin, and it's the sort of thing Belichick notices.

 

[mayoclinic]

I think we need a rotational base DE much more than a pass rush specialist.

Mike Neal re-signed for 2 years with Green Bay. His 2014 cap hit is $3.75M, his 2015 cap hit $4.25M. Not ridiculous.

Corey Wootton is still on the market. He would be a solid addition for something a bit less than Neal got. Like Neal, he has the ability to drop into coverage at times, and to move inside as an interior rusher. If not, Shaun Phillips, Anthony Spencer and Robert Ayers are all currently available, and would be solid additions.

Jamie Collins and Dont'a Hightower both have the capability to be used on the line as sub rushers at time. Between those guys and Buchanan, I think we're decent shape if we add a rotational DE.

 

[RayClay]

Belichick is not signing a "great pass rusher". He has indicated many times (by his actions) that this position isn't a high priority. As Andy has said, Belichick considers this a backup position.

You are suggesting is that we can sign a lower quality pass-rusher at less money. I agree.

No, I am suggesting we look for a bargain among guys who were great pass rushers in college, but can't get playing time because they lack ideal size and/or other abilities.

You get washed up vets with past performance who's legs are gone (I love Andre carter, but i think he's there).

You either pay a fortune (high priority which is NOT what I'm saying, or you fill a gap with a role player, in this case, fast, but lacking in some other ways, because you have your ideal (C. Jones) and other players who are more ideal size and/or versatile.

I don't think the premise is that complicated if you try to understand it and not argue against what I'm not saying.

 

[Ring 6]

Assuming we have needs at WR, OL, LB depth TE, etcetera, we might not be looking to break the bank on a pass rusher.

Of course, getting a premier rusher would be great but age and huge bucks seems to be the impediments. Kony Ealy has a 1st round grade and seems like a good player with good size but, maybe not an impact player and the draft isn't strong in this area IMO (assuming we're ging after 6'3" and better, our ideal).

So, how do we fill? We have our ideal in C. Jones and a good rusher and all around player in Nincovich. We have Collins, but he'll likely have his hands full as a new starter at OLB.

The league has it's Dumervills and Freeney's who are relatively short, but those are the elite, and paid like it. I'm wondering, rather than gamble in the draft or paying big bucks for someone in their mid thirties, can we find some really fast, short guys who washed out because most teams want size and are affordable, after showing rush ability in college?

Since we have the ideal, the utility player and a young 6'6" project in Buchanan who looks disruptive, I think we're ideally situated for a strictly part time mis fit toy with a high motor who's vertically challenged (or lacking in run stopping stoutness).

For every Freeney or Dumervil, there are ten of these guys every draft who become marginal because of limitations mentioned in their all around game.

I'm mostly a Pats fan and admittedly don't keep up on league personnel, especially NFC, but I'm guessing I'm right. Forget ideal height, weight and run stopping, we're talking about a part time specialist who's affordable

If I get to pick how we do it, here goes.

First I think Vince is done. If he wont take a paycut, we have other ways to spend the money with more certainty. I am OK with having lost a fully recovered VW because the risk of keeping him at the cost was too high. Every move is a gamble, this one seems obvious when you consider what can be done with that 7.5 mill.

So, in the base defense,what I would really like to do is get a new starting DE and move Ninkovich back to LB as part of a 4 man rotation. Jared Allen sounds about right. That gives us a base front 7 of:
Allen-Kelly-Siliga-Jones (I could see the ends flipping sides or even moving back and forth through the game) Ninkovich can also fill in as backup DE, as could Buchanan or a jag FA or draft choice as the 5th.
The LBs are Hightower SAM Mayo MIKE Collins WILL with Ninkovich getting a decent amount of snaps as the 4th.
In nickle, Ninkovich goes to DE along with Allen (I'd love to see Hightower tried there too), Jones moves inside and Chris Jones is the other DT.
Mayo and Collins are the nickel LBers.

It will be interesting to see where Browner plays.
Personally I think he is the perfect complement to Revis. The #1 is banished to Revis Island and Browner can play the most aggressive style he can knowing there will always be help. Dennard, Ryan and Arrington can fight it out to be the nickel and dime guys and I'd have to say the survivor of that would be one of the best nickel corners in the league since on many teams they would be competing with each other to start.
The question is the other safety. Is Harmon the answer? It appears that the approach to this offseason will tell us because BB will add a safety (or the plan is for Browner to play there) if he is not 100% certain Harmon is ready. Could Adrian Wilson be the answer? Earlier in his career he would have been the perfect addition to this group. The question is whether his dropoff was age or injury related. If injury related and he has had a full year to rehab, he could be a big surprise.

This defense has an enormous amount of potential.

 

[mgteich]

I agree that $4M a year for a rotational DE is a fine addition. Andy would add a $7M a year starter. I know what we all are selling (one serious addition at DE). I just don't think Belichick is buying.

I think we need a rotational base DE much more than a pass rush specialist.

Mike Neal re-signed for 2 years with Green Bay. His 2014 cap hit is $3.75M, his 2015 cap hit $4.25M. Not ridiculous.

Corey Wootton is still on the market. He would be a solid addition for something a bit less than Neal got. Like Neal, he has the ability to drop into coverage at times, and to move inside as an interior rusher. If not, Shaun Phillips, Anthony Spencer and Robert Ayers are all currently available, and would be solid additions.

Jamie Collins and Dont'a Hightower both have the capability to be used on the line as sub rushers at time. Between those guys and Buchanan, I think we're decent shape if we add a rotational DE.

 

[mayoclinic]

If I get to pick how we do it, here goes.

First I think Vince is done. If he wont take a paycut, we have other ways to spend the money with more certainty. I am OK with having lost a fully recovered VW because the risk of keeping him at the cost was too high. Every move is a gamble, this one seems obvious when you consider what can be done with that 7.5 mill.

So, in the base defense,what I would really like to do is get a new starting DE and move Ninkovich back to LB as part of a 4 man rotation. Jared Allen sounds about right. That gives us a base front 7 of:
Allen-Kelly-Siliga-Jones (I could see the ends flipping sides or even moving back and forth through the game) Ninkovich can also fill in as backup DE, as could Buchanan or a jag FA or draft choice as the 5th.
The LBs are Hightower SAM Mayo MIKE Collins WILL with Ninkovich getting a decent amount of snaps as the 4th.
In nickle, Ninkovich goes to DE along with Allen (I'd love to see Hightower tried there too), Jones moves inside and Chris Jones is the other DT.
Mayo and Collins are the nickel LBers.

It will be interesting to see where Browner plays.
Personally I think he is the perfect complement to Revis. The #1 is banished to Revis Island and Browner can play the most aggressive style he can knowing there will always be help. Dennard, Ryan and Arrington can fight it out to be the nickel and dime guys and I'd have to say the survivor of that would be one of the best nickel corners in the league since on many teams they would be competing with each other to start.
The question is the other safety. Is Harmon the answer? It appears that the approach to this offseason will tell us because BB will add a safety (or the plan is for Browner to play there) if he is not 100% certain Harmon is ready. Could Adrian Wilson be the answer? Earlier in his career he would have been the perfect addition to this group. The question is whether his dropoff was age or injury related. If injury related and he has had a full year to rehab, he could be a big surprise.

This defense has an enormous amount of potential.

I agree that it's time to move on from Wilfork (I've been saying that for 3 months), and I think that adding a rotational DE and having Ninkovich split time between DE and LB is a very good idea. Jared Allen would be a fine addition, but given what Demarcus Ware and Julius Peppers got and what Allen reportedly wants, I don't see it happening. If it does, I'll be all for it, though I'd rather spend the money on Alex Mack if possible and give Brady some protection.

Corey Wootton, Shaun Phillips, Anthony Spencer and Robert Ayers are all available.

 

[mgteich]

fair ewnough

You want to sign a player whose size and skill set is not now deemed to be translatable to the NFL and take a flyer. That's fine. Belichick has no problem using the bottom of the roster to take a shot at minimum cost.

No, I am suggesting we look for a bargain among guys who were great pass rushers in college, but can't get playing time because they lack ideal size and/or other abilities.

You get washed up vets with past performance who's legs are gone (I love Andre carter, but i think he's there).

You either pay a fortune (high priority which is NOT what I'm saying, or you fill a gap with a role player, in this case, fast, but lacking in some other ways, because you have your ideal (C. Jones) and other players who are more ideal size and/or versatile.

I don't think the premise is that complicated if you try to understand it and not argue against what I'm not saying.

 

[DW Toys]

So we're going to sign a great pass rusher over 6'4" for vet minimum to play part time? You're right, I like your idea better. Maybe Jared Allen will play for that money.

I would love Allen but we have no CAP space unless we release Wilfork (probably) and Connelly (should be). Let me throw these two out there.

1-You might have your pass rusher and MLB if they swap positions. Ninkovitch to play MLB and Hightower as DE.
Hightower is 6'3" and 270 (bigger) and played DE as well as ILB at Alabama. He looks a little lost out there at times at LB. I think he would be tremendous with his hand in the dirt.
Ninkovitch is 6'2" and 260. He has player OLB in our system He is a better coverage guy but MLB isn't that needy for coverage as OLB.
Nink is a good tackler, smart and can cover. I think he is the perfect MLB.

Think about it before you trash the idea.

You solved two problems MLB and bigger DE.

2-The Eagles have been trying to move this kid. DE Vinny Curry. 6'3" and 279. He did the BB favorite 3 cone at 6.90. He had 26 sacks at Marshall. He is miscast as a 3-4 DE on the Eagles and they know it, and would be much better in 4-3. He was Drafted in the second round. Even as a rotation guy he had 5 sacks. He is still under his rookie salary so cheap enough CAP wise. He was a second rounder in 2012. I would throw our third rounder in a second for a proven NFL player who might break out here in a 4-3 defense. He is bigger than both Hightower or Nink. At 279 he is a bigger DE than Buchanan.

Why waste a third round pick on a maybe successful Drafted kid?

DW Toys

 

[RayClay]

fair ewnough

You want to sign a player whose size and skill set is not now deemed to be translatable to the NFL and take a flyer. That's fine. Belichick has no problem using the bottom of the roster to take a shot at minimum cost.

There you go.

Has nothing to do with different scenarios others have proposed, which have merits. Just a diamond in the rough part time role player who's role happens to be rushing on third down.

Of course, such a player might not be available, but I'm guessing he might (since so many DE candidates don't transfer well from college to the NFL). BBs got the staff to look under those rocks at the fringe of rosters.

I think we could afford the roster space, I mean we were holding Carter and Bequette among others.

 

[Brady6]

Assuming we have needs at WR, OL, LB depth TE, etcetera, we might not be looking to break the bank on a pass rusher.

Of course, getting a premier rusher would be great but age and huge bucks seems to be the impediments. Kony Ealy has a 1st round grade and seems like a good player with good size but, maybe not an impact player and the draft isn't strong in this area IMO (assuming we're ging after 6'3" and better, our ideal).

So, how do we fill? We have our ideal in C. Jones and a good rusher and all around player in Nincovich. We have Collins, but he'll likely have his hands full as a new starter at OLB.

The league has it's Dumervills and Freeney's who are relatively short, but those are the elite, and paid like it. I'm wondering, rather than gamble in the draft or paying big bucks for someone in their mid thirties, can we find some really fast, short guys who washed out because most teams want size and are affordable, after showing rush ability in college?

Since we have the ideal, the utility player and a young 6'6" project in Buchanan who looks disruptive, I think we're ideally situated for a strictly part time mis fit toy with a high motor who's vertically challenged (or lacking in run stopping stoutness).

For every Freeney or Dumervil, there are ten of these guys every draft who become marginal because of limitations mentioned in their all around game.

I'm mostly a Pats fan and admittedly don't keep up on league personnel, especially NFC, but I'm guessing I'm right. Forget ideal height, weight and run stopping, we're talking about a part time specialist who's affordable

I would not sleep on Michael Buchanan. He was very good at creating pressure early last season; his inability to contain the run put him on the bench. That generally is technique and understanding your assignment and a full offseason in the NFL will go a long way in improving that.

Overall Buchanan is a freakish talent, take a look at his combine compared to Chandler Jones –

Michael Buchanan –
- Combine Invite: Yes
- Height: 6053
- Weight: 255
- 40 Yard Dash: 4.71
- 20 Yard Dash: 2.67
- 10 Yard Dash: 1.65
- 225 Lb. Bench Reps: 22
- Vertical Jump: 33
- Broad Jump: 09'05"
- 20 Yard Shuttle: 4.44
- 3-Cone Drill: 6.91

Chandler Jones –
- Combine Invite: Yes
- Height: 6053
- Weight: 266
- 40 Yard Dash: 4.77
- 20 Yard Dash: 2.73
- 10 Yard Dash: 1.66
- 225 Lb. Bench Reps: 22
- Vertical Jump: 35
- Broad Jump: 10'00"
- 20 Yard Shuttle: 4.38
- 3-Cone Drill: 7.07

They are very comparable, Buchanan slipped in the draft because he was involved in an altercation and suffered a broken jaw, which caused significant weight loss and resulted in a lackluster senior year. If he works hard this offseason, improves his technique and adds 10-15 pounds to his lanky frame he could be good for 6-8 sacks in 2014. He had 2 sacks in the first 4 weeks in 2013, before his run stopping issues became his downfall.

 

[Brady6]

I would love Allen but we have no CAP space unless we release Wilfork (probably) and Connelly (should be). Let me throw these two out there.

1-You might have your pass rusher and MLB if they swap positions. Ninkovitch to play MLB and Hightower as DE.
Hightower is 6'3" and 270 (bigger) and played DE as well as ILB at Alabama. He looks a little lost out there at times at LB. I think he would be tremendous with his hand in the dirt.
Ninkovitch is 6'2" and 260. He has player OLB in our system He is a better coverage guy but MLB isn't that needy for coverage as OLB.
Nink is a good tackler, smart and can cover. I think he is the perfect MLB.

Think about it before you trash the idea.

You solved two problems MLB and bigger DE.

2-The Eagles have been trying to move this kid. DE Vinny Curry. 6'3" and 279. He did the BB favorite 3 cone at 6.90. He had 26 sacks at Marshall. He is miscast as a 3-4 DE on the Eagles and they know it, and would be much better in 4-3. He was Drafted in the second round. Even as a rotation guy he had 5 sacks. He is still under his rookie salary so cheap enough CAP wise. He was a second rounder in 2012. I would throw our third rounder in a second for a proven NFL player who might break out here in a 4-3 defense. He is bigger than both Hightower or Nink. At 279 he is a bigger DE than Buchanan.
DW Toys

They will mix Hightower and Collins in to the pass rush a lot more this season, the now defensive backfield will allow that. Collins has explosive ability to get around the edge and could have 8-10 sacks on his own. Hightower is a solid pass rusher, but more out of a base 4-3 as the SAM or 3-4 as the SOLB, I would not expect him to be as effective rushing from sub packages.

 

[RayClay]

I would love Allen but we have no CAP space unless we release Wilfork (probably) and Connelly (should be). Let me throw these two out there.

1-You might have your pass rusher and MLB if they swap positions. Ninkovitch to play MLB and Hightower as DE.
Hightower is 6'3" and 270 (bigger) and played DE as well as ILB at Alabama. He looks a little lost out there at times at LB. I think he would be tremendous with his hand in the dirt.
Ninkovitch is 6'2" and 260. He has player OLB in our system He is a better coverage guy but MLB isn't that needy for coverage as OLB.
Nink is a good tackler, smart and can cover. I think he is the perfect MLB.

Think about it before you trash the idea.

You solved two problems MLB and bigger DE.

2-The Eagles have been trying to move this kid. DE Vinny Curry. 6'3" and 279. He did the BB favorite 3 cone at 6.90. He had 26 sacks at Marshall. He is miscast as a 3-4 DE on the Eagles and they know it, and would be much better in 4-3. He was Drafted in the second round. Even as a rotation guy he had 5 sacks. He is still under his rookie salary so cheap enough CAP wise. He was a second rounder in 2012. I would throw our third rounder in a second for a proven NFL player who might break out here in a 4-3 defense. He is bigger than both Hightower or Nink. At 279 he is a bigger DE than Buchanan.

Why waste a third round pick on a maybe successful Drafted kid?
DW Toys

If he can play, he'd obviously fit more than a specialist role here. Depends on the player.

As far as the switch, Nincovich had 8 sacks each of the last two years, I don't know why we'd switch when Hightower seems ready to step into MLB with experience running the defense last year.

Not trashing it, just don't see what's broke that you're fixing.

 

[Ice_Ice_Brady]

Why is Jake Bequette still on the roster?

 

[State]

I agree that it's time to move on from Wilfork (I've been saying that for 3 months), and I think that adding a rotational DE and having Ninkovich split time between DE and LB is a very good idea. Jared Allen would be a fine addition, but given what Demarcus Ware and Julius Peppers got and what Allen reportedly wants, I don't see it happening. If it does, I'll be all for it, though I'd rather spend the money on Alex Mack if possible and give Brady some protection.

Corey Wootton, Shaun Phillips, Anthony Spencer and Robert Ayers are all available.

Spencer for hire?

The idea that Buchanan, who had the worst coaching imaginable at Illinois--worse than if he were an Army Cadet--will come in next season and give us six to eight sacks is a pipe dream. I hope I'm wrong.

Anthony Spencer, on the other hand...

 

[mgteich]

We have the roster space. BTW, IIRC, Carter was keeping Buchanan on the bench. In any case, we certainly have room for a developmental DL or two; we always do.

I think we could afford the roster space, I mean we were holding Carter and Bequette among others.