Jimmy Graham NE Patriot?

[Joker]

stop making sense, Supa...you're pizzing me off...

 

[OhExaulted1]

Yes, a team could wait until after the draft to sign Graham to an offer. A team would have Graham for the 2014 season before giving their 2015 and 2016 1st round picks.

Intriguing. This has all the makings of the story of the offseason. Makes you wonder why NO would play with fire like this.

 

[Deus Irae]

Yes, but there's obviously a reason why we don't see other NFL teams parting with 2 first round draft picks....ever.

It's beyond horrible business practice, especially with the recent change in the rookie wage scale. You don't build your team properly by not having a first round draft pick for the next 2 years.

On top of that, Belichick's first draft selections are excellent--so I'm not sure where the whole "odds" aspect came into play? We've built our team with superior talent in the first round on cheap rookie deals time and time again.

Graham's a TE/WR hybrid who's talented but a bit soft. For JJ Watt, someone would give up the picks. For Andrew Luck, someone would give up the picks. It's all dependent upon who's available.

 

[strngplyr]

It's 2 late 1st rounders for a guy who's averaged 90-1169-13 against NFL defenses the last 3 years and is a 6-7 260# durable 27 yr old.

Maybe one of the 4 or 5 top TE prospects will turn out to be "that guy", but odds are against it. As pheenix11 aptly put it, a bird in the hand is worth 2 in the bush.

While I'm still against it, it's pretty easy to counter the argument of Graham disappearing and not being a blocking TE by the fact that we have Gronk, who when healthy is easily one of the top 3 most productive skill position players in the NFL.

Graham, on our team, would never be covered by the #1 cover guy and he doesn't need to be much more of a blocker than Hernandez was.

It's hard to argue with the guys production stated despite him vanishing for games. He more than likely will not be matched by anyone coming out of the next several drafts from either the receiver OR tight end position.

2010 draft will NEVER be again duplicated for tightends, it's crazy what came out of there, good and bad.

 

[OhExaulted1]

Yes, but there's obviously a reason why we don't see other NFL teams parting with 2 first round draft picks....ever.

It's beyond horrible business practice, especially with the recent change in the rookie wage scale. You don't build your team properly by not having a first round draft pick for the next 2 years.

On top of that, Belichick's first draft selections are excellent--so I'm not sure where the whole "odds" aspect came into play? We've built our team with superior talent in the first round on cheap rookie deals time and time again.

Jones was #21 overall, Solder #17, so I'll leave them out. Our last 2 high 1st rounders were #25 Hightower (2012) and #27 McCourty (2010). Would you trade those 2 for Jimmy Graham?

I would.

How about some of these high pick swing and misses:
2006 #21 Maroney #36 Jackson
2007 #24 Merriweather
2009 #34 Chung, #40 Brace, #41 Butler
2010 #33 Dowling

Would you trade all 7 of them for Graham? While your at it add up there salaries. Now that's bordering on some "beyond horrible business practice".

I'm not trying to be a total contrarian, I just think if you step back and really think about it, it's really not as crazy as it first sounds.

 

[strngplyr]

Jones was #21 overall, Solder #17, so I'll leave them out. Our last 2 high 1st rounders were #25 Hightower (2012) and #27 McCourty (2010). Would you trade those 2 for Jimmy Graham?

I would.

How about some of these high pick swing and misses:
2006 #21 Maroney #36 Jackson
2007 #24 Merriweather
2009 #34 Chung, #40 Brace, #41 Butler
2010 #33 Dowling

Would you trade all 7 of them for Graham? While your at it add up there salaries. Now that's bordering on some "beyond horrible business practice".

I'm not trying to be a total contrarian, I just think if you step back and really think about it, it's really not as crazy as it first sounds.

Your hindsight is incredible.

You can't use hindsight to determine future draft picks while conveniently leaving out successful picks because we traded to get them. Those successful picks wouldn't have been possible either if we had traded their picks we used to get them.

The Jones pick started as #27, a late first rounder.

I'll be fair on Solder, that pick was acquired via Oakland from the Seymour trade.

 

[supafly]

Jones was #21 overall, Solder #17, so I'll leave them out. Our last 2 high 1st rounders were #25 Hightower (2012) and #27 McCourty (2010). Would you trade those 2 for Jimmy Graham?

I would.

How about some of these high pick swing and misses:
2006 #21 Maroney #36 Jackson
2007 #24 Merriweather
2009 #34 Chung, #40 Brace, #41 Butler
2010 #33 Dowling

Would you trade all 7 of them for Graham? While your at it add up there salaries. Now that's bordering on some "beyond horrible business practice".

I'm not trying to be a total contrarian, I just think if you step back and really think about it, it's really not as crazy as it first sounds.

You can't compare the last two situations of Chung at #34 or Dowling at #33, due to the fact that we traded down for even more players and picks. You'd have to combine the total haul that we received.

Even then, you're also leaving out a ton of first round success stories, so the fact that we had a 2x pro bowler in Meriweather and a RB who averaged 4.0 YPC, averaged about 750 yds per year and scored 22 total TD's in his four years here (5.5 TD's per year average) as the "low points" doesn't really show lack of success, nor bad business practice in my opinion.

For the record, I respect your thoughts on Graham and don't mean my comments to sound personal at all. I'm just pointing out the fact that we rarely ever see anyone part with 2 first round draft picks, and that's for a reason.

Obviously, the Saints (or any other team who has decided to use the franchise tag) weren't too concerned with the possibility of another team parting with 2 first rounders, or they wouldn't have even risked it.

 

[supafly]

Graham's a TE/WR hybrid who's talented but a bit soft. For JJ Watt, someone would give up the picks. For Andrew Luck, someone would give up the picks. It's all dependent upon who's available.

In those situations, I think the teams would be stupid for not using the exclusive version of the tag, just as we've seen with Manning, Brees, etc, so yes--it's a valid point.

I still think the bottom line is that we just don't see teams give up multiple first rounders for these guys, as much as the media and fanbase tries to act like it's a distinct possibility every year. The odds are mighty low.

 

[Deus Irae]

In those situations, I think the teams would be stupid for not using the exclusive version of the tag, just as we've seen with Manning, Brees, etc.

I agree. I was just saying that the 2 picks isn't going to dissuade every team away from every player.

 

[supafly]

I agree. I was just saying that the 2 picks isn't going to dissuade every team away from every player.

Sure. Eventually, someone will probably bite at some point. Until we have a big enough sample size though, I'm still thinking it's bad business as a whole. The recent rookie wage scale has made that even more of a point, I'd think.

I like Graham's obvious talent, but it's the other factors that turn me off. I can't say that I'd be terribly disappointed if Belichick decided to do it though, even though my comments probably seem to insinuate that. I would however, be quite surprised.

 

[Armchair Quarterback]

Yes, but there's obviously a reason why we don't see other NFL teams parting with 2 first round draft picks....ever.

It's beyond horrible business practice, especially with the recent change in the rookie wage scale. You don't build your team properly by not having a first round draft pick for the next 2 years.

On top of that, Belichick's first draft selections are excellent--so I'm not sure where the whole "odds" aspect came into play? We've built our team with superior talent in the first round on cheap rookie deals time and time again.

In the last few years alone, off the top of my head, not tagged players.

RGIII was traded for 3 first rounders as well as a second.

Julio Jones was traded for 2 first rounders, a second and two fourths.

Jay Cutler was traded for 2 first rounders, a third and Kyle Orton.

 

[ctpatsfan77]

Yes, a team could wait until after the draft to sign Graham to an offer. A team would have Graham for the 2014 season before giving their 2015 and 2016 1st round picks.

Isn't the deadline for signing a player to an offer sheet 7 days before the draft?

 

[ctpatsfan77]

In the last few years alone, off the top of my head, not tagged players.

RGIII was traded for 3 first rounders as well as a second.

Julio Jones was traded for 2 first rounders, a second and two fourths.

Jay Cutler was traded for 2 first rounders, a third and Kyle Orton.

In none of these cases, though, did the team trade 2 first rounders and pay $10M/yr for the player.

 

[supafly]

In the last few years alone, off the top of my head, not tagged players.

RGIII was traded for 3 first rounders as well as a second.

Julio Jones was traded for 2 first rounders, a second and two fourths.

Jay Cutler was traded for 2 first rounders, a third and Kyle Orton.

I'm not seeing the comparison, ACQB. I think you're confused about what the discussion is about.

None of these players were tagged under the franchise tag. Zero.

All you're doing is giving examples of draft day trades to move up.

How about some examples of teams who gave up 2 first round picks to steal away players who were tagged with the non-exclusive franchise tag? That is what we're talking about.

 

[ctpatsfan77]

I'm not seeing the comparison, ACQB.

None of these players were tagged under the franchise tag. Zero.

All you're doing is giving examples of draft day trades to move up.

How about some examples of teams who gave up 2 first round picks to steal away players who were tagged with the non-exclusive franchise tag? That is what we're talking about.

The Cutler trade was actually pre-draft, post-Cassel-trade. But still not a franchise tag matter.

 

[supafly]

In none of these cases, though, did the team trade 2 first rounders and pay $10M/yr for the player.

And none of these examples were teams who stole away franchise tagged players by choosing to part with 2 first rounders.

It just doesn't happen. I want to say that there may have been one example years ago, but I can't remember the circumstances of the scenario. As a whole, if teams don't choose to use the exclusive version of the tag, they've won their gamble or simply weren't worried enough in the first place. (Or, they would have been more than happy to walk away with 2 first rounders)

The "important/franchise" players such as Brees, Manning, etc were all exclusive versions of the tag. If the team chooses to try and save money by going non-exclusive, then either they weren't all that worried to begin with, would have matched any offer, or would have been okay with the 2 first rounders in compensation.

 

[supafly]

The Cutler trade was actually a pre-draft, post-Cassel-trade.

Yes, I should've clarified and not chosen to lump it in with the other examples, but none of them were examples of teams parting with multiple first round picks under the franchise tag system, and that's what he chose to respond to me about.

Obviously, there have been first round picks given up in trade compensation, but they weren't under the franchise tag arrangement (although there may have been one example from years ago--but I can't remember). The point was that it just doesn't happen.

 

[OhExaulted1]

You can't compare the last two situations of Chung at #34 or Dowling at #33, due to the fact that we traded down for even more players and picks. You'd have to combine the total haul that we received.

We got Chung for Matt Cassel and Mike Vrabel, and traded #89 in 2010 to Carolina (Armanti Edwards of App. ST.) and stood pat for #33 Dowling in 2011. After review the total haul is even less impressive.

Even then, you're also leaving out a ton of first round success stories, so the fact that we had a 2x pro bowler in Meriweather and a RB who averaged 4.0 YPC, averaged about 750 yds per year and scored 22 total TD's in his four years here (5.5 TD's per year average) as the "low points" doesn't really show lack of success, nor bad business practice in my opinion.

A ballerina with shoulder pads and a 15 yard personal foul waiting to happen.

For the record, I respect your thoughts on Graham and don't mean my comments to sound personal at all. I'm just pointing out the fact that we rarely ever see anyone part with 2 first round draft picks, and that's for a reason.

I actually always enjoy your posts supa. If I took anything personal on a message board, I would probably need to re-evaluate my life. You are certainly more respectful than some I've seen. All good. As far as the tag and loss of picks goes, the only time I remember anything like that actually happening was the aforementioned Cassel-Vrabel sign and trade with KC. I may be wrong but I don't think any team has ever actually gave up 2 1st picks to sign a tagged guy before, so I guess it would set a whole new uncharted precedent. If I'm incorrect I digress for not doing any research.

Obviously, the Saints (or any other team who has decided to use the franchise tag) weren't too concerned with the possibility of another team parting with 2 first rounders, or they wouldn't have even risked it.

This is the part that I find unbelievable. Not only did they insult him with the TE tag, but they left him exposed by not applying the Exclusive variety. Mickey Loomis has some balls. I'd be pissed if I were Graham.

 

[ctpatsfan77]

Yes, I should've clarified and not chosen to lump it in with the other examples, but none of them were examples of teams parting with multiple first round picks under the franchise tag system, and that's what he chose to respond to me about.

Obviously, there have been first round picks given up in trade compensation, but they weren't under the franchise tag arrangement (although there may have been one example from years ago--but I can't remember). The point was that it just doesn't happen.

The only players I can remember getting traded on a franchise tag are both Patriots (Cassel and Tebucky Jones), and both of those were tag-and-trades (a 3, 5, and 7, IIRC, for Jones).

 

[supafly]

The only players I can remember getting traded on a franchise tag are both Patriots (Cassel and Tebucky Jones), and both of those were tag-and-trades (a 3, 5, and 7, IIRC, for Jones).

Yeah, I thought that it was either zero or maybe one at the most. I knew it was a rare occasion.

No multiple 1st round picks.