The Scott O'Brien - Ryan Allen Brainfart

[PATSNUTme]

The ball was not in the End Zone. Had Allen kicked the ball out of the end zone from the 2, the Colts would have received the ball at the 2. I don't know if the ball would have gone into the EZ had Allen not picked it up. Is anyone positive it would have?

The kid tried to make a play and as it turned out, it was the best case for the Patriots. I don't see why O'Brien is getting bashed. It was a freak play and I don't know what he could have coached Allen to do differently in that situation.

 

[RayClay]

The ball was not in the End Zone. Had Allen kicked the ball out of the end zone from the 2, the Colts would have received the ball at the 2.

I'm not a rules guy, but I'm reading all over he should have kicked it out for the safety, including Reiss
New England Patriots thoughts at halftime - ESPN

In that situation, Allen had to know to kick the ball out of the back of the end zone for a safety. The Patriots were fortunate that Allen lost the ball and it went through the end zone, as that safety easily could have been a touchdown.

 

[VrabelMayeWin]

The ball was not in the End Zone. Had Allen kicked the ball out of the end zone from the 2, the Colts would have received the ball at the 2. I don't know if the ball would have gone into the EZ had Allen not picked it up. Is anyone positive it would have?

The kid tried to make a play and as it turned out, it was the best case for the Patriots. I don't see why O'Brien is getting bashed. It was a freak play and I don't know what he could have coached Allen to do differently in that situation.

I'm not a rules guy, but I'm reading all over he should have kicked it out for the safety, including Reiss
New England Patriots thoughts at halftime - ESPN

Someone on twitter said the Colts would have had the option to take the ball at the 1 if it had been kicked. I guess it would be Illegal Kicking and half the distance. Not sure why kicking the ball becomes legal in the end zone.

 

[RayClay]

Someone on twitter said the Colts would have had the option to take the ball at the 1 if it had been kicked. I guess it would be Illegal Kicking and half the distance. Not sure why kicking the ball becomes legal in the end zone.

Someone on Twitter?

 

[patchick]

Someone on twitter said the Colts would have had the option to take the ball at the 1 if it had been kicked. I guess it would be Illegal Kicking and half the distance.

That makes a lot of sense, and if it's true then Allen actually had the right idea, if lousy execution. And he and O'Brien would deserve apologies from certain board posters, with flowers.

If you can't kick it back into the endzone, then a snap over your head landing at the 3 yard line in a rainstorm is pretty much the worst situation a punter can possibly find himself in.

 

[PatsDeb]

OK, this needs to be said.

A FREAKING PUNTER does just ONE THING!

He doesn't have to learn a playbook.

He has ALOT of time on his hands.

How in the WORLD does not a Special Teams Coach make it MUSCLE MEMORY for the punter not to know that, in a fumble/bad snap situation near the goal line, that the AUTOMATIC REFLEX is to kick it straight out of the end zone.

That is remedial Football 101.

Yes, it is on Ryan Allen to know that, not only in his brain, but in every reflex muscle of his body.

And it is on the Special Teams Coach to make sure that the punter (who doesn't have to learn the playbook and has a lot of time on his hands) to make sure that it is muscle memory for that punter.

To a Head Coach like Bill Belichick who continually repeats the phrase "SITUATIONS.....SITUATIONS......SITUATIONS" to his team, what happened last night with Scott O'Brien and Ryan Allen is unforgiveable.

Agreed. When he picked up the ball and was trying to do something with it, it was one of those cover-your-eyes moments for me (it happened right in front of me as my seats are goal line) as I screamed to no one in particular, "Why isn't he kicking it out of the end zone?." I didn't even realize he got hurt to boot. The people around me were booing when it was ruled a safety. My husband and I were saying, "We're lucky it was only a safety..." as it could have been their ball on the one yard line or maybe a touchdown (? - if they had tackled him in the end zone in possession of the ball, would that have been a TD for the Colts or a safety? I assume that if he had fumbled it in the EZ and they had pounced on it instead of punching it out-of-bounds it would have been a TD for the Colts?).

Anyway, like the OP, I couldn't believe Allen made such a rookie mistake, which cost him an injury and us maybe a punter/holder for the rest of the playoffs. And shame on the long snapper for a terrible snap, not only there but on one of Gost's subsequent punts when the snap pretty much hit the ground but he was somehow able to recover it and get the punt off.

PS - I am not blaming the special teams coach as I cannot believe Allen was coached to do what he did. Probably just a heat of the moment panic decision...

 

[PatsDeb]

The ball was not in the End Zone. Had Allen kicked the ball out of the end zone from the 2, the Colts would have received the ball at the 2. I don't know if the ball would have gone into the EZ had Allen not picked it up. Is anyone positive it would have?

The kid tried to make a play and as it turned out, it was the best case for the Patriots. I don't see why O'Brien is getting bashed. It was a freak play and I don't know what he could have coached Allen to do differently in that situation.

I don't think this is right, Nut. Remember when we played the Colts in 2003 or 04 and the same thing happened to them? The kicker immediately kicked the ball through the end zone and it was a safety, followed by a free kick.

 

[MassPats38]

The rule is it's a safety if the ball is deemed dead in the endzone by virtue of impetus on the ball attributed to the punting team. If Allen is on the punting team and moves the ball, I'm not sure how that would be other than a safety.

By the way, here's a nice visual on the play from a USA Today link.

 

[ivanvamp]

So…….is Allen going to be able to play next week? If not, who replaces him?

 

[shmessy]

Not if he tried to down it near the 50 and a couple 260 pounders tried to beat him to the loose ball and pig piled him. If I was a scrawny little punter and near the sideline, I'd try to wack it out of bounds.

It wasn't at the 50.

It was at the 2.

 

[RayClay]

It wasn't at the 50.

It was at the 2.

I was responding to some hypotheticals before I reviewed. By the way, if this rule book is right, Colts would have had the option to enforce illegal kicking instead of a safety.

However, he could bat it out of the end zone for a safety. Crazy NFL rules. Looks like everybody is wrong in one way or another.

Back to the outrage. Why didn't he bat it (not kick it) out!?!

Play 1 - 4th &10@A30, Snap over punters head. At A10, punter A86 bats ball backwards out of the back of endzone….. no foul, safety, 2 points for Team B
Play 2 - 4th &10@A30Snap over punters head. At A10, punter A86 kicks ball backwards out of the back of endzone….. foul illegal kicking, safety, 2 points for
2009-2010 NCAA Rulebook, South Plains Chapter Football Officials. Not meant to be all encompassing.
Team B; or penalty enforced from spot of foul A-10 with LOD, half-distance. 1 & 10 for Team B at A5.

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...N4yvWQkEA&sig2=L4-tcZZjmlBikXh9GFlKgA&cad=rja

EDIT lol. The above is an NCAA site, but I ran into a site called officiating . com which I won't link cause I got an AV waring that has a discussion of this with one difference. Team A (us) would do 4th down over with possession 1/2 distance, or give up a safety if the penalties declined. Then we could kick over, hike it out of the end zone or whatever, since it's our ball.

Given that circumstance, the Colts would have declined and taken the 2 points.

That's all I've got.

 

[VrabelMayeWin]

Someone on Twitter?

Yep. You know, the real time version of someone posting on a message board.

 

[RayClay]

Yep. You know, the real time version of someone posting on a message board.

Not if they have a name and are a writer, head of NFL officiating, or something similar. Of course they could lie, but you can be sure I am not a shut down corner from the 1970s-80s.

I did read something from a message board for officials, but it wasn't about this play, it was about the situation, so I gave it a bit more credence.

I downloaded the nfl rulebook? and found nothing. Maybe I don't know how to search it.

 

[VrabelMayeWin]

Not if they have a name and are a writer, head of NFL officiating, or something similar. Of course they could lie, but you can be sure I am not a shut down corner from the 1970s-80s.

I did read something from a message board for officials, but it wasn't about this play, it was about the situation, so I gave it a bit more credence.

I downloaded the nfl rulebook? and found nothing. Maybe I don't know how to search it.

I just meant that twitter is no less reliable than something you or I write here. I only follow people consider to be reliable but there's no guarantee just like what is written here.

 

[RayClay]

I just meant that twitter is no less reliable than something you or I write here. I only follow people consider to be reliable but there's no guarantee just like what is written here.

I understand, just saying there are verified accounts and if someone has expertise, I would give it more credibility. Or I'm just being a nit, not to worry.

 

[MassPats38]

Not if they have a name and are a writer, head of NFL officiating, or something similar. Of course they could lie, but you can be sure I am not a shut down corner from the 1970s-80s.

I did read something from a message board for officials, but it wasn't about this play, it was about the situation, so I gave it a bit more credence.

I downloaded the nfl rulebook? and found nothing. Maybe I don't know how to search it.

By my read of this excerpt of the NFL rules, the team without possession, after a kick out of the endzone, could elect for (1) rekick 10 yards deeper (in this case the Pats 40) or (2) a safety. It would not be a loss of downs or change of possession.

A.R. 3.27 ILLEGALLY KICKING A MUFFED SNAP
Fourth-and-5 on B30. Quarterback A1 muffs the hand-to-hand snap, and while the ball is loose on the ground at the B31, A1 deliberately kicks it, causing it to go out of bounds at the B24.
Ruling: Fourth-and-15 on B40. Team B must accept the penalty for illegal kicking, or Team A would get the ball at the spot that the backward pass went out of bounds. (8-4-1-Note)
NOTE: This ruling is the same at any time during the game or overtime.

 

[voluntarysaftey]

What I found most mind blowing was that Brady became the holder for the extra points and said in his press conference that he hadn't done it since the Orange Bowl his senior year and even more amazing that he doesn't even do it in practice. For a team that prides itself on covering all of it's bases, having a contingency plan for every eventuality and having depth at every position I couldn't believe that was the case. Why Ryan Mallet hasn't been taking some of those in practice is a mystery.

Kudos to Brady who didn't miss a beat.

Good question; The fact is I don't think the Patriots are far better than other teams at special teams intelligence/planning. I think the top 10 teams or so are all decent (and maybe the Patriots fall in line with that), but this example of not having a backup holder sortof shows there's nothing special about how the Patriots plan for contingencies.
Just like the ending of the NO-SEA game; the guy did a forward lateral that had zero chance of succeeding when the obvious play was to step out of bounds and have one (or two) more shots at an endzone grab -- and I don't think any one would've guessed a NO coached player would execute a scripted play that badly

 

[raduray]

I'm surprised Dierdorf didn't recommend a scissors kick.

 

[patchick]

this example of not having a backup holder sortof shows there's nothing special about how the Patriots plan for contingencies.

I'm not sure that they don't have a backup holder; IIRC Mallett did it during preseason. But given that it was the second half of a game in bad weather, Belichick went with the guy who wasn't coming in cold and who had taken a ton of shotgun snaps with the wet ball.

 

[Wheelman]

Only one caveat...the line of scrimmage was out near mid-field. If Allen picks it up and throw an incomplete pass, the ball turns over nowhere near the goal line. But yeah, I was yelling for him to kick it right through the end zone.

Lol, Dierdorf wanted him to fall on it on the two...

That's provided Ryan Allen was able to throw it 50 yards to get the ball back to the line of scrimmage or if he could find an eligible receiver to throw it near to. Or else it would be intentional grounding.

Oh another note, why was the ref allowed to hold the patriots up when they switched late. Someone correct me if I'm wrong but I thought the refs didn't have to hold the ball when they're switching to a punt unit/field goal unit?