ThePhins.com "Call me crazy but this team is up to no good again"

[TheBostonStraggler]

My favorite response to the nit wits is to invite them to come over to the dark side where they can simultaneously bask in the glory radiating from TFB's rings while feasting on the jealousy and fear spewing from the haters at the mere mention of Emperor Hoodie's name.

As our mantra, let the immortal words of Ken Patera ring out far and wide across the NFL universe; "win if you can, lose if you must, but always cheat!"

Great saying.
And though I run the risk of ruining the day of the virtuous, cheating is common place in the NFL/sports. It can be masked by innocuous phrases like gamesmanship or 'gaining an edge' but at the heart of it is cheating. Isn't one definition of "cheating" to use dishonesty to gain an advantage? For a great and entertaining example of this is international soccer games. The dramatic flops to get a card are sometimes laughable. Yet how is it not cheating when you lie about something to gain an edge? Just as how is not cheating when you teach a lineman to break a rule in a way that he won't get caught?

Spygate is the phoniest hyped story since the Y2k bug. As I understand it, everything the Patriots did is otherwise legal provided the people doing it simply stood in the right part of the field/stadium. It's not only foolish at its base, it doesn't even rise to the level of "cheating" that teaching linemen to hold or circumventing the cap process is. Unfortunately the legacy of that foolishness is low thinkers unaware of the most common logical fallacies will use it in lieu of an actual thought process. Fortunately, sometimes, karma comes around in the form of a reckoning. Hopefully this Phins player soon finds his number called to come up the the reckoning table.

 

[crew1954]

I can confidently say that about 90%+ of the average fan has no idea of the actual "truths" of what happened with Cameragate.

For one thing, it was mainly geared towards the NFC opponents as they felt that they could help to bridge the gap of less scouting/intel. It was also done in response to many other teams (reportedly also the NYJ) doing it too. Belichick claims that he misunderstood the memo. Whether that is true or not, I have no idea. I can guarantee you that there's no way in the world that he could have ever guessed that it'd have become what it did though. I also believe that it didn't have nearly the kind of positive effect for us that so many seem to think, judging by our better record overall since--especially our scoring output on offense.

I'm fine with a punishment if he broke a rule in the big picture. What I'm not fine with is Goodell throwing fuel on the fire, and failing to stop what quickly (within 72 hrs) became a plethora of mis-information and poorly guided misconception by the media and average fan. Of course we all wish that Belichick himself would have helped his case a bit by explaining things a bit more, but that's just not the way he is. He couldn't care less what others think.

The irony is that Goodell not only besmirched the Patriots good name, he trashed his own credibility among many NFL fans who think he covered the 'cheating' up by destroying the evidence.

The words Goodell and Spygate will always be linked negatively, for one reason or another, in all 32 NFL cities.

 

[PatsWickedPissah]

Spygate is the phoniest hyped story since the Y2k bug. As I understand it, everything the Patriots did is otherwise legal provided the people doing it simply stood in the right part of the field/stadium. It's not only foolish at its base, it doesn't even rise to the level of "cheating" that teaching linemen to hold or circumventing the cap process is. Unfortunately the legacy of that foolishness is low thinkers unaware of the most common logical fallacies will use it in lieu of an actual thought process. Fortunately, sometimes, karma comes around in the form of a reckoning. Hopefully this Phins player soon finds his number called to come up the the reckoning table.

Your bold statement is true.

Unfortunately fans and network analysts conflate the Goodell reaction to filming from a prohibited location with the Boston Herald's Thomase's false, since retracted charges of filming opponents' (q.v. Rams) practices. Every month some pundit will make a casual reference to the Pats having filmed opponents' practices. Think of this level of "journalistic" incompetence when you read "the news". It's not only in sports that the media has agendas that obscure or 180 degree the truth.

 

[RelocatedPatFan]

So, about how many years before someone network is brave enough to do the truth of CameraGate and it's impact on the Patriots ability to win. a tell all of both sides.

I understand people want to live with the delusion for awhile longer and it would probably (maybe) coincide with BB's induction to the Hall of Fame or maybe the year before. I would hope the Krafts would push something like this to make sure his name (and the Patriots) is cleared.

 

[PatsWickedPissah]

So, about how many years before someone network is brave enough to do the truth of CameraGate and it's impact on the Patriots ability to win. a tell all of both sides.

I understand people want to live with the delusion for awhile longer and it would probably (maybe) coincide with BB's induction to the Hall of Fame or maybe the year before. I would hope the Krafts would push something like this to make sure his name (and the Patriots) is cleared.

Your hope is in vain. Kraft had a chance to take the initiative on this and passed, satisfying himself with only a later retraction by the Herald. Kraft needed to use his skills in a timely fashion to lobby Goodell to clarify explicitly what the Patriots were and were not accused of doing. He did not and now it's ancient history.

And in the perfect world he needed to lobby to get the loss of a #1 draft pick penalty greatly reduced. But that might have been beyond his ability as the new boss on the block was on a mission.

 

[RelocatedPatFan]

Your hope is in vain. Kraft had a chance to take the initiative on this and passed, satisfying himself with only a later retraction by the Herald. Kraft needed to use his skills in a timely fashion to lobby Goodell to clarify explicitly what the Patriots were and were not accused of doing. He did not and now it's ancient history.

And in the perfect world he needed to lobby to get the loss of a #1 draft pick penalty greatly reduced. But that might have been beyond his ability as the new boss on the block was on a mission.

I agree, but you can't change the past.

I always assumed there were some back door conversations taking place and her Goodell wanted nothing to do with reasoning and just got swept up in the backlash and setting up his first big moment as the Sheriff.

Still, I think some Positive PR (in time, if not now) is necessary because BB wold probably appreciate his legacy being viewed in the right light. Though, it was also ironic that BB was "Coach of the Year" for the 2007 season.

One comment that alwys stuck with me and I think Bill Simmons said it. BB got a man-1 sentence for what was a jaywalking ticket.

 

[Ring 6]

I can confidently say that about 90%+ of the average fan has no idea of the actual "truths" of what happened with Cameragate.

For one thing, it was mainly geared towards the NFC opponents as they felt that they could help to bridge the gap of less scouting/intel.

I have never, ever seen anything at all to support this claim. Can you please show me where you got this from.
My understanding is that they did it every game for many years.

It was also done in response to many other teams (reportedly also the NYJ) doing it too.

Again, this appears to be a new claim. Almost every team taped signals, BB did not do it to get back at someone, he did it because it is/was a common practice. It is still very likely being done.

Belichick claims that he misunderstood the memo.

I say he correctly understood the memo, specifically the 'for use in that game' portion, but was penalized for the spirit of the memo even though the content conflicted with that.

Whether that is true or not, I have no idea. I can guarantee you that there's no way in the world that he could have ever guessed that it'd have become what it did though. I also believe that it didn't have nearly the kind of positive effect for us that so many seem to think, judging by our better record overall since--especially our scoring output on offense.

There was absolutely zero positive effect. Not breaking the rules would have simply meant the filming was done from a different spot.
While people make the silly argument that if I tape, study and figure out your signals in an NFL game that you will not change them for the next game we play, that is again irrelevant because taping, studying and trying to figure out signals is not a violation of the rules.
The only way they gained an advantage was if the spot they filmed from gave them an advantage, which is ridiculous.
The Patriots were penalized because it created the perception of cheating. Frankly, the NFL was probably right to do so, because the perception of cheating is as damaging to the shield as cheating in many ways. Without a severe penalty the league would have come off not as endorsing what really happened, but as endorsing the perception that was created. Even today, 6 years later most people speaking about the topic are misinformed, and even an informed person like you just put a couple unsubstantiated 'fact' into this post.
See if your facts were correct, only doing it against NFC opponents WOULD taint the SBs and doing it because someone else did it to you would also make it seem like a desperate practice rather than the routine one it was.

I'm fine with a punishment if he broke a rule in the big picture. What I'm not fine with is Goodell throwing fuel on the fire, and failing to stop what quickly (within 72 hrs) became a plethora of mis-information and poorly guided misconception by the media and average fan

.
Again, he had to deal with perception, and whatever he said wouldnt have mattered because 6 years later no one has listened to the facts anyway.
For any purpose other than BBs reputation, Goodell was correct to overreact to the perception not the reality because his concern was the public perception of the league, fair competition, and its response to violations. Softening the blow to the rule breaker who created the misperception about the league was rightly his last concern.
As a Patsfan I realize BB and the team were railroaded but taking off the fan hat, its pretty easy to see the issue and dangers Goodell were dealing with went well beyond what was fair to the Patriots and his job is to protect the shield, even if an unfair punishment falls in the wake. Overpenalizing a violator is a lesser concern than damaging the reputation of the league. We are seeing that every week now with penalties and fines for hits. Fining a player may be unfair to him on a lot of the hits we see getting tagged, but leaving no question that the league is perceived to be about safety first is a more important consideration to them.
The game has been set back in the last few years by egregious rules regarding high hits, essentially eliminating the KO return, and creating a stupid OT rule to assuage complaining fans. None were the best solutions, but all were the best way to enhance the public perception of the league offices.
Throw the Saints issue into that, and the Tomlin one once they moronically take a draft pick away. (Ever wonder why a draft pick? The draft gets more overall attention and coverage than the SB)

Of course we all wish that Belichick himself would have helped his case a bit by explaining things a bit more, but that's just not the way he is. He couldn't care less what others think.

I think it would have been disingenuous for the man who never speaks about anything interal to choose the time he is punished to do so. There is zero chance is would have been perceived by anyone as anything but a cheater lying to cover his cheating ass. Those that care about the facts, don't need the explanation, those that don't would have dismissed it or even added it to their 'evidence' (proof: cheaters lie and liars cheat)

 

[Absurdly Metro]

So, about how many years before someone network is brave enough to do the truth of CameraGate and it's impact on the Patriots ability to win. a tell all of both sides.

I understand people want to live with the delusion for awhile longer and it would probably (maybe) coincide with BB's induction to the Hall of Fame or maybe the year before. I would hope the Krafts would push something like this to make sure his name (and the Patriots) is cleared.

I think it'll happen. IMO, at some point, probably after he retires and goes into the HOF, BB is going to let someone write the story of his life in which he will set the record straight on the chapter known as Spygate. Can't wait to read it! :singing:

 

[Ring 6]

Your hope is in vain. Kraft had a chance to take the initiative on this and passed, satisfying himself with only a later retraction by the Herald. Kraft needed to use his skills in a timely fashion to lobby Goodell to clarify explicitly what the Patriots were and were not accused of doing. He did not and now it's ancient history.

And in the perfect world he needed to lobby to get the loss of a #1 draft pick penalty greatly reduced. But that might have been beyond his ability as the new boss on the block was on a mission.

I wont rehash everything in my prevous post, but BB and Kraft were not fighting interpretation of a rule, technical violation or non-violation, or the appropriate penalty for the actual transgression but the perception of what happened.
Goodell punished for the perception, and given his job description probably had to.
Kraft and BB are smart enough to understand that, and also smart enough to know that defending themselves in the media would have at best been useless and at worst hurt their reputation further.
In hindsight they were right because 6 years later no one has listened to the facts, so clearly they wouldn't have listen to Kraft and BB Nixonesque "I'm not a crook" commentaries

 

[Ring 6]

I think it'll happen. IMO, at some point, probably after he retires and goes into the HOF, BB is going to let someone write the story of his life in which he will set the record straight on the chapter known as Spygate. Can't wait to read it! :singing:

I kind of think that when BB retires he will abandon the limelight and barely be heard from again.

 

[PatsWickedPissah]

I wont rehash everything in my prevous post, but BB and Kraft were not fighting interpretation of a rule, technical violation or non-violation, or the appropriate penalty for the actual transgression but the perception of what happened.
Goodell punished for the perception, and given his job description probably had to.
Kraft and BB are smart enough to understand that, and also smart enough to know that defending themselves in the media would have at best been useless and at worst hurt their reputation further.
In hindsight they were right because 6 years later no one has listened to the facts, so clearly they wouldn't have listen to Kraft and BB Nixonesque "I'm not a crook" commentaries

No need to rehash because your post has little to do with my point which was about Kraft using his business negotiating skills with GOODELL, not the media as you state, to have Goodell clarify precisely what and what not the Pats were being penalized for and to address the public perception via the Comissioner's offices' statements.

 

[RelocatedPatFan]

I kind of think that when BB retires he will abandon the limelight and barely be heard from again.

I agree he won't seek the limelight, but he's also appreciate history and specifically history of this game. He may not do it for his own legacy, but perhaps that of the Patriots.

either way, I can wait awhile for him to enough his retirement.

 

[sb1]

They are all claiming that this is a franchise defining game for the Phins and how this game will end the Pats dynasty!

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The dynasty ended 8 years ago in Denver.

 

[Joker]

I won't argue any of the posted information above Andy...but I WILL ask the question..if "Goodell punished for the perception, and given his job description probably had to. "..then why did he only "punish" Rex Ryan for repeated violations of league rules in the most lenient way possible?

The public profanities, the embarrassing sexual deviance, the orchestrated sideline tripping...on and on. A wrist slap every time. The Patriots organization gets robbed of a fundamental team building block because Goodell HAD TO?

As a former Jet employee he should have had an independent arbitrator decide BB's fate. Goodell just deferred to an independent arbitrator in the Dolphins/Incognito case. There has always been more to this issue than any of us have been privy to.

 

[sb1]

It's simple.

Not one current or former Patriot employee or player has ever spoken up and said they either witnessed cheating occurring, were asked to cheat, or actually participated in cheating.

Not ONE.

That is very telling to me. I mean we even had a former Steeler player (google False Glory by Steve Courson) write a book about the PED cheating that went on in the 70's and players like Terry Bradshaw admit their PED use on a nationally syndicated radio show...so why hasn't something similar happened with this team if cheating was as rampant and systemic in this organization as Patriot-haters and media claim?

 

[Jackson 2]

They are all claiming that this is a franchise defining game for the Phins and how this game will end the Pats dynasty!

-----
The dynasty ended 8 years ago in Denver.

Thanks for a genuine laugh! You are delusional. The Patriots have been since 2001 the gold standard for the NFL and continue to be. All of the deniers, like you, can keep their heads in the sand, but in their hearts they, and you, know it's true.

 

[crew1954]

I kind of think that when BB retires he will abandon the limelight and barely be heard from again.

Likely you are right. He would be great as a Pats radio "color" commentator though (no chance in hell he does NFL TV).

 

[Pat Riot]

Re: Re: ThePhins.com "Call me crazy but this team is up to no good again"

I kind of think that when BB retires he will abandon the limelight and barely be heard from again.

I think. He can't wait to talk.

 

[sb1]

As for Bill - he had to have known other teams would have followed the letter of the memo, and he knew exactly what he was doing by ignoring it.

He was getting an edge for his team.

That's a good thing...looking for an edge is his job... but in this case it would heave been best to just do what the memo said instead of thinking that if caught he could just lawyer-up the words of the memo, make it look like the gray area that it wasn't and embarrass the league.

 

[sb1]

Thanks for a genuine laugh! You are delusional. The Patriots have been since 2001 the gold standard for the NFL and continue to be. All of the deniers, like you, can keep their heads in the sand, but in their hearts they, and you, know it's true.

So I take it you think the 90's Bills are a dynasty? Are the Peyton Manning Colts a dynasty?

No to both. A dynasty is about multiple championships and nothing less. Otherwise that word gets watered down.

The Pats won 3 of 4, then got drilled in Denver and haven't won since. They've been great for the last 13 years. But they haven't been a dynasty since January of 2006.