Ridley officially arrives at crossroads

[Brady6]

The reality is that Ridley is not in the same class as a Peterson or a JJ Watt. The reality is that Ridley has the lowest YPA of the team's 4 RBs, and your explanations/justifications don't change that. I think Ridley's the team's best interior RB. That doesn't make him elite, anymore than BJGE being the team's RB1 made him a quality RB1.

I am not suggesting he is.

• Ridley is in his 3rd season like Watt so if you don’t consider him to be elite you need to base that on his performance and not what point he is at in his career otherwise you could not compare Watt to be elite either because they’re as I mentioned at the same point.
• Ridley has had troubles with ball security in his first 3 seasons just like Adrian Peterson did in his first 3 seasons, you suggested that I cannot compare Peterson because he is an all-time great but I am not comparing Ridley to Peterson today I am comparing him to Peterson at 512 carries and at that point and time Peterson had similar career numbers to Ridley, does that mean he will be as good as Peterson of course not but you suggested that great players are given more time and if that is the case since they’re similar why wouldn’t Ridley be allowed that same time?

You can fault Ridley for not doing well with ball security that’s fine I just don’t understand why that has to be combined with diminishing the positive things he has done in his career so far? I think the young man has some issues but he is clearly the best primary runner on this team, to suggest Blount is better is ridiculous. Blount is a solid depth running back similar to Sammy Morris but if he was our lead back this board would be filled with hate threads for the guy and the draft section would be overloaded with RB prospects.

 

[manxman2601]

I am not comparing Ridley to Watt but what I am saying is if DI says that Ridley cannot be considered elite because of the point he is at in his career then Watt who is from the same draft class would have to have the same rules apply. I think Watt is elite, I think if Ridley did not have the ball security issues he would be an elite back or at least on the cusp of that, I also think a player can be elite as a rookie, the NFL is performance based league not a tenure based league.

I think Ridley is some way off elite personally, too easy a word to throw around. I got what you were trying to say with that comparison and I'm not sure what DI was trying to say there but you don't help your arguments with these comparisons. This thread has got bogged down in AP and JJ Watt discussions and to be frank, Ridley isn't anywhere near that class so it derails the thread.

Now your point about him being the best RB in his draft class is a good one and it was a fairly strong class too.

 

[Brady6]

I really have no idea why Ridley is beloved by so many fans on this board.

Probably has something do with this:

2004 – Dillon 1635 rushing yards
2006 – Dillion 13 rushing touchdowns

Those are the only times since Curtis Martin left in 1997 that a running back had more yards and as many touchdowns as Stevan Ridley had last season in just his second NFL season and his first year as the lead back.

 

[Deus Irae]

I am not suggesting he is.

That's precisely what you're suggesting by equating them in the manner you have.

Ridley is in his 3rd season like Watt so if you don’t consider him to be elite you need to base that on his performance and not what point he is at in his career otherwise you could not compare Watt to be elite either because they’re as I mentioned at the same point.

What the hell are you talking about? JJ Watt is doing things that no D-lineman has ever done (16 passes defensed and 20.5 sacks in the same season). Stevan Ridley is doing nothing of particular note (highlight is #7 in rushing with less than 1300 yards).

Ridley has had troubles with ball security in his first 3 seasons just like Adrian Peterson did in his first 3 seasons, you suggested that I cannot compare Peterson because he is an all-time great but I am not comparing Ridley to Peterson today I am comparing him to Peterson at 512 carries and at that point and time Peterson had similar career numbers to Ridley, does that mean he will be as good as Peterson of course not but you suggested that great players are given more time and if that is the case since they’re similar why wouldn’t Ridley be allowed that same time?

Are you freakin' kidding me with this crap?

Peterson faces 8 and 9 men in the box routinely, teams game plan specifically to defend against Peterson, and his numbers are STILL superior to Ridleys.

As for the 512 carries claim, you know that's a horse crap argument. In Peterson's first two seasons, he had 3101 yards on 601 carries, for a 5.2 ypc, despite playing against those stacked boxes. Ridley, even with the benefit of teams defending Brady and the pass first, is averaging 4.5 ypc for his young career.

You can fault Ridley for not doing well with ball security that’s fine I just don’t understand why that has to be combined with diminishing the positive things he has done in his career so far? I think the young man has some issues but he is clearly the best primary runner on this team, to suggest Blount is better is ridiculous. Blount is a solid depth running back similar to Sammy Morris but if he was our lead back this board would be filled with hate threads for the guy and the draft section would be overloaded with RB prospects.

It's called analysis. Give it a shot.

 

[Brady6]

I think Ridley is some way off elite personally, too easy a word to throw around. I got what you were trying to say with that comparison and I'm not sure what DI was trying to say there but you don't help your arguments with these comparisons. This thread has got bogged down in AP and JJ Watt discussions and to be frank, Ridley isn't anywhere near that class so it derails the thread.

Now your point about him being the best RB in his draft class is a good one and it was a fairly strong class too.

I agree he is not in the same class as Watt or AP but I am only comparing the fact that Watt is a 3rd year player and Peterson had fumbling issues during his first 512 carries. Ironically the start of this conversation stems from my post in which I said posters need to have the altitude to look at the post they’re reading and see beyond the players names referenced in the post but instead the actually premise of the message, people all to often focus only on the players names and conclude and argue based on that – like I said in my initial post if I say TY Hilton and Josh Boyce have the same 40 yard dash time that doesn’t mean that I am suggesting Boyce is as good as TY Hilton or even that he is going to be I am simply comparing 1 faucet of their games or make.

 

[manxman2601]

What the hell are you talking about? JJ Watt is doing things that no D-lineman has ever done (16 passes defensed and 20.5 sacks in the same season). Stevan Ridley is doing nothing of particular note (highlight is #7 in rushing with less than 1300 yards).

In Brady6's defense, you originally said that Ridley couldn't be considered elite "at this point in his career". Brady6 obviously took that as meaning three years in the league, the same as Watt.

 

[Deus Irae]

In Brady6's defense, you originally said that Ridley couldn't be considered elite "at this point in his career". Brady6 obviously took that as meaning three years in the league, the same as Watt.

Whenever you talk about a young player, there's a caveat because of potential improvement leading into their prime years. That doesn't mean there's any 1:1 situation. It just means that the player hasn't fully established his floor/ceiling yet, and I was acknowledging that. To take an example that's about as clear as it gets:

Mark Sanchez is a garbage QB. He's also only 27 years old and, theoretically, capable of some level of improvement. However, It's still a joke when people toss out "But Sanchez went to 2 AFCCGs and beat Tom Brady in the playoffs!" as a way to defend his overall QB prowess, because it's pretty obvious that the only way he's ever going to reach a level of play that's even remotely near Brady's is if God performs a miracle.

 

[Brady6]

That's precisely what you're suggesting by equating them in the manner you have.

What the hell are you talking about? JJ Watt is doing things that no D-lineman has ever done (16 passes defensed and 20.5 sacks in the same season). Stevan Ridley is doing nothing of particular note (highlight is #7 in rushing with less than 1300 yards).

Are you freakin' kidding me with this crap?

Peterson faces 8 and 9 men in the box routinely, teams game plan specifically to defend against Peterson, and his numbers are STILL superior to Ridleys.

As for the 512 carries claim, you know that's a horse crap argument. In Peterson's first two seasons, he had 3101 yards on 601 carries, for a 5.2 ypc, despite playing against those stacked boxes. Ridley, even with the benefit of teams defending Brady and the pass first, is averaging 4.5 ypc for his young career.

It's called analysis. Give it a shot.

You’re missing the point completely DI. I am not comparing them 1-to-1 I am comparing specific faucets of them. If Ridley isn’t elite in your opinion it is because you don’t feel his performance is, that however is not what you said you said point in his career but his point is the same point as Watt. AP having 8-9 men in the box makes no difference because the comparison is solely based on ball security and in that comparison over the first 512 carries they both had similar ball security issues. You’re doing here exactly what I pointed out in my initial post as an issue among some posters in here your ignoring the premise of what I am trying to say and instead focusing on names of players and being disagreeable based on that, but I am not suggesting that and if you took the time to comprehend my post instead of jumping at the opportunity to take a shot at my post you would see that I am not saying Ridley is as good as Peterson or Watt.

I disagree with your assessment of Ridley he had one of the top 2-3 seasons of any running back who has worn a Patriots uniform in the last 20 years last season, I think you’re undervaluing the kid.

Either way lets put this to it isn’t productive for either of us. For the record you need to stop suggesting what I am stating when I am telling you exactly what I am stating.

 

[manxman2601]

I agree he is not in the same class as Watt or AP but I am only comparing the fact that Watt is a 3rd year player and Peterson had fumbling issues during his first 512 carries. Ironically the start of this conversation stems from my post in which I said posters need to have the altitude to look at the post they’re reading and see beyond the players names referenced in the post but instead the actually premise of the message, people all to often focus only on the players names and conclude and argue based on that – like I said in my initial post if I say TY Hilton and Josh Boyce have the same 40 yard dash time that doesn’t mean that I am suggesting Boyce is as good as TY Hilton or even that he is going to be I am simply comparing 1 faucet of their games or make.

I understand that but they were fairly lazy comparisons that were obviously going to get a negative response. I do think you should recognise that and that you shouldn't always be trying to defend yourself. Be the bigger man and keep the thread moving forward, it is your thread after all. I do recognise however that some people say some pretty bad things to you though and I don't understand why people feel the need to act that way.

But then what do I know about comparisons? I compared Jamie Collins to Jim Brown yesterday

 

[manxman2601]

Whenever you talk about a young player, there's a caveat because of potential improvement leading into their prime years. That doesn't mean there's any 1:1 situation. It just means that the player hasn't fully established his floor/ceiling yet, and I was acknowledging that. To take an example that's about as clear as it gets:

Mark Sanchez is a garbage QB. He's also only 27 years old and, theoretically, capable of some level of improvement. However, It's still a joke when people toss out "But Sanchez went to 2 AFCCGs and beat Tom Brady in the playoffs!" as a way to defend his overall QB prowess, because it's pretty obvious that the only way he's ever going to reach a level of play that's even remotely near Brady's is if God performs a miracle.

As a peacemaker, can I get us all to accept that Mark Sanchez is garbage and move on

 

[Wrath Mania]

Probably has something do with this:

2004 – Dillon 1635 rushing yards
2006 – Dillion 13 rushing touchdowns

Those are the only times since Curtis Martin left in 1997 that a running back had more yards and as many touchdowns as Stevan Ridley had last season in just his second NFL season and his first year as the lead back.

So romanticizing the Martin/Dillon eras is why Ridley has become a fetish?

I mean, firstly, the Patriots offense and the NFL in general was a very different beast back in 2004; nowadays running backs are a dime-a-dozen, UNLESS you happen to get an all-world talent like Peterson or McCoy. Look at how the Colts got duped into trading for Richardson. In this era of passing, RBs are pretty dispensable- which, again, is why the defense of Ridley is so odd.

But all that aside- I'm trying to grasp your logic: Dillon was the best back since Curtis Martin. Right. And Ridley in 2012 matched Dillon's TD totals in 04. Therefore, and because it was "ONLY" his second-year (WOOOW!), Ridley MUST be the next MartinDillon. OK. Great.

You realize BJGE had 13 TDs in '10, 11 in '11, right? You realize that Ridley's 1300 yards rushing really isn't all that impressive, even for a team that is pass-first like the Pats; LeSean McCoy, for instance, already has almost 1100 yards this year for the Chip Kelly Eagles.

And before you start this crap about "BUT ITS ONLY HIS THIRD YEAR," you realize that Ridley has absolutely shown no evidence to evolving to more than what he is; that is to say, a one-dimensional runner with some above-average talent for hitting the hole, who can't improvise when a play falls apart, offers nothing to the passing game, and also happens to keep fumbling the ball away? Whereas a LeSean McCoy showed tremendous versatility as early as his first year, in all phases of offense?

If you look at more of the league than just the Patriots, you'll see there's nothing special at all about Ridley. And when you consider his continued incompetence on-field, why bother with him?

 

[Brady6]

Whenever you talk about a young player, there's a caveat because of potential improvement leading into their prime years. That doesn't mean there's any 1:1 situation. It just means that the player hasn't fully established his floor/ceiling yet, and I was acknowledging that. To take an example that's about as clear as it gets:

Let me ask you this – Do you consider Jason Pierre-Paul to be an elite player?

 

[Deus Irae]

You’re missing the point complete DI. I am not comparing them 1-to-1 I am comparing specific faucets of them.

I'm not missing the point at all. I'm saying that your comparisons have been horrible. Better, reasonable, comparisons were available.

If Ridley isn’t elite in your opinion it is because you don’t feel his performance is, that is however is not what you said you said point in his career but his point is the same point as Watt.

I'm sorry that you can't grasp the difference between elite players producing at rarely, or never, before seen levels and a guy who's been a comparatively 'meh' player so far and is doing nothing of the sort. That doesn't mean that I haven't made my point, though. It just means that you failed to grasp something pretty obvious.

AP having 8-9 men in the box makes no difference because the comparison is solely based on ball security and in that comparison over the first 512 carries they both had similar ball security issues.

Of course it makes a difference. Peterson was being game planned for and was being targeted by more players, hit by more players, and the 'victim' of attempted strips by more players, as a result. How is it possible that you can't see the difference there?

You’re doing here exactly what I pointed out in my initial post as an issue among some posters in here your ignoring the premise of what I am trying to say and instead focusing on names of players and being disagreeable based on that, but I am not suggesting that and if you took the time to comprehend my post instead of jumping at the opportunity to take a shot at my post you would see that I am not saying Ridley is as good as Peterson or Watt.

No, what I'm doing is pointing out the folly of your comparison.

I disagree with your assessment of Ridley he had one of the top 2-3 seasons of any running back who has worn a Patriots uniform in the last 20 years last season, I think you’re undervaluing the kid.

I'm not undervaluing the kid. The Patriots have had one (count them, ONE) healthy, established and quality RB since Martin departed, and that was Corey Dillon at the tail end of his career. Saying that Ridley's season was up near the top of the dross in that time is like saying Mark Sanchez is the best QB the Jets have had since 2010. It's meaningless, even if true.

Either way lets put this to it isn’t productive for either of us. For the record you need to stop suggesting what I am stating when I am telling you exactly what I am stating.

What you claim to be stating and what you're actually stating are not necessarily the same thing. That's even more true when you change "stating" to "suggesting" or "implying".

 

[Deus Irae]

Let me ask you this – Do you consider Jason Pierre-Paul to be an elite player?

No. I consider him to be an elite physical talent who's underperformed since his so-called breakout second season. Elite players are guys who are playing better than pretty much everyone else and, generally, at a level that allows for some comparison to all-time players, regardless of where I might rank their specific individual skills.

JJ Watt = Elite player
Peterson = Elite player
TFB = Elite player

JPP = Elite talent, not elite player

 

[coolguy]

So romanticizing the Martin/Dillon eras is why Ridley has become a fetish?

I mean, firstly, the Patriots offense and the NFL in general was a very different beast back in 2004; nowadays running backs are a dime-a-dozen, UNLESS you happen to get an all-world talent like Peterson or McCoy. Look at how the Colts got duped into trading for Richardson. In this era of passing, RBs are pretty dispensable- which, again, is why the defense of Ridley is so odd.

But all that aside- I'm trying to grasp your logic: Dillon was the best back since Curtis Martin. Right. And Ridley in 2012 matched Dillon's TD totals in 04. Therefore, and because it was "ONLY" his second-year (WOOOW!), Ridley MUST be the next MartinDillon. OK. Great.

You realize BJGE had 13 TDs in '10, 11 in '11, right? You realize that Ridley's 1300 yards rushing really isn't all that impressive, even for a team that is pass-first like the Pats; LeSean McCoy, for instance, already has almost 1100 yards this year for the Chip Kelly Eagles.

And before you start this crap about "BUT ITS ONLY HIS THIRD YEAR," you realize that Ridley has absolutely shown no evidence to evolving to more than what he is; that is to say, a one-dimensional runner with some above-average talent for hitting the hole, who can't improvise when a play falls apart, offers nothing to the passing game, and also happens to keep fumbling the ball away? Whereas a LeSean McCoy showed tremendous versatility as early as his first year, in all phases of offense?

If you look at more of the league than just the Patriots, you'll see there's nothing special at all about Ridley. And when you consider his continued incompetence on-field, why bother with him?

I just love how everyone pretends like dillion and bjge were not products of the best offensive lines in the league.

Ridley these two years has arguably been playing behind the worst the pats offensive line the have had in 10 years. (I'm not saying the offensive line is terrible, but it's inferior to the matt light era seasons)

 

[manxman2601]

No. I consider him to be an elite physical talent who's underperformed since his so-called breakout second season. Elite players are guys who are playing better than pretty much everyone else and, generally, at a level that allows for some comparison to all-time players, regardless of where I might rank their specific individual skills.

JJ Watt = Elite player
Peterson = Elite player
TFB = Elite player

JPP = Elite talent, not elite player

That 2011 draft was poor for QB's, but there's a lot of elite or potentially elite talent in that draft. Watt, Von, Dareus, AJ Green, Julio Jones, Peterson, Quinn and Mo Wilkerson can all claim to be among the best in the NfL at what they do. Heck, you could throw in Aldon Smith too although that's not as cut and dried. That was some first round.

 

[moosekill]

I just love how everyone pretends like dillion and bjge were not products of the best offensive lines in the league.

Ridley these two years has arguably been playing behind the worst the pats offensive line the have had in 10 years. (I'm not saying the offensive line is terrible, but it's inferior to the matt light era seasons)

Hmm, everything I have seen has called their O-line one of the best in football.

 

[Deus Irae]

That 2011 draft was poor for QB's, but there's a lot of elite or potentially elite talent in that draft. Watt, Von, Dareus, AJ Green, Julio Jones, Peterson, Quinn and Mo Wilkerson can all claim to be among the best in the NfL at what they do. Heck, you could throw in Aldon Smith too although that's not as cut and dried. That was some first round.

Absolutely. It was the sort of draft that makes me wish BB would trade up in the first a bit more often.

 

[Deus Irae]

I just love how everyone pretends like dillion and bjge were not products of the best offensive lines in the league.

Ridley these two years has arguably been playing behind the worst the pats offensive line the have had in 10 years. (I'm not saying the offensive line is terrible, but it's inferior to the matt light era seasons)

Dillon was a hell of a runner when he was with the Bengals, so I'm not sure why you'd try bringing him into your comparison. As for BJGE, who's saying BJGE is a better RB than Ridley? I'm not seeing much (well, any, really) of that. I'm certainly not taking that position.

 

[manxman2601]

Absolutely. It was the sort of draft that makes me wish BB would trade up in the first a bit more often.

It would certainly be nice to have one of those. But we got Solder, Vereen and Chandler Jones* out of that draft and I'll take that.

* Chandler Jones does help to support your point though.