Anyone still think the run defense is fine?

[IllegalContact]

a good run defense is not as important as people make it out to be......yesterdays game is proof that no matter how well a teams runs the ball, they will ultimately throw it

case in point, just look at the dolphins offensive play selection while their 17-3 lead turned into a 20-17 deficit. during that time, they ran the ball 5 times and tried to throw the ball 14 times even though they ran the ball 22 times and threw the ball 18 times in a very good 1st half for them. they ran the ball for 5, 8, 3, -1, 4 and the passing game over that time was 5 for 10 for 45 yards with 2 sacks for a loss of 20 yards and a fumble lost.

the running game exists only to give the QB's arm a rest

 

[GaryfromTO]

No question, the losses of Wilfork, Mayo & Kelly was a big blow to our defense, but you have to deal with it.

When the offense improves (notice how I say when and not if), and starts putting up more points consistently, it will force opposing teams to play more pass than run downs, trying to outscore Brady. If you can put teams behind early, it forces them into a pass mode more often than run.

A more potent offense will take a lot of pressure off our run defense.

 

[Ring 6]

Run D certainly wasn't 'fine' yesterday but I saw it as prety good overall except for a few breakdowns.
The drive to a FG at the end of the half was terrible run D and there was one other stretch on a different drive. Aside from those 2 breakdowns, I thought it was acceptable.

 

[Dagg]

Interior is definitely weak without Big V but that doesn't explain why we aren't setting the edge consistently the last 2 weeks.

 

[supafly]

a good run defense is not as important as people make it out to be......yesterdays game is proof that no matter how well a teams runs the ball, they will ultimately throw it

case in point, just look at the dolphins offensive play selection while their 17-3 lead turned into a 20-17 deficit. during that time, they ran the ball 5 times and tried to throw the ball 14 times even though they ran the ball 22 times and threw the ball 18 times in a very good 1st half for them. they ran the ball for 5, 8, 3, -1, 4 and the passing game over that time was 5 for 10 for 45 yards with 2 sacks for a loss of 20 yards and a fumble lost.

the running game exists only to give the QB's arm a rest

I highly doubt that a team who ran for 103 yards on 22 carries in the first half and was up 17-3 were just "running to give the QB's arm a rest."

Miami would have happily put up close to 200 yards on the ground had the game not shifted so dramatically. At the 10 minute mark of the 3rd quarter, MIA was marching for a 20-3 lead. Once they missed the FG, the Pats tied the game less than 4 minutes later. The reason why they abandoned the run to some degree is due to the fact that the game setting changed.

How many times have we seen guys like Flacco (2009 AFC divisional loss) not even attempt to throw the ball whatsoever? I believe he had less than 10 attempts in the entire game because the game was never in question. RGIII is another QB who comes to mind whose attempts are often low, especially when the running game is working. There are plenty of times you see him with under 100-150 yds throwing.

 

[jmt57]

Here is a look at the running plays by Miami. A gap in the description below signifies a new drive.

1st Quarter:

1st and 10 at MIA 9	L.Miller left guard to MIA 7 for -2 yards (Chr. Jones)
2nd and 12 at MIA 7	(Shotgun) M.Thigpen left tackle to MIA 6 for -1 yards (B.Spikes).

2nd and 3 at NE 33	L.Miller left end to NE 30 for 3 yards (B.Spikes).	 	 
1st and 10 at NE 30	L.Miller left end pushed ob at NE 22 for 8 yards (A.Dennard).	 	 
2nd and 2 at NE 22	L.Miller up the middle to NE 22 for no gain (J.Vellano; D.Hightower).
1st and 10 at NE 16	C.Clay up the middle to NE 15 for 1 yard (J.Vellano; B.Spikes).
1st and 3 at NE 3	(Shotgun) L.Miller up the middle to NE 4 for -1 yards (D.Hightower).

2nd and 10 at MIA 32	D.Thomas left end to MIA 35 for 3 yards (Chr. Jones).
2nd and 10 at MIA 44	D.Thomas up the middle to NE 48 for 8 yards (D.McCourty; J.Collins).
3rd and 2 at NE 48	D.Thomas left tackle to NE 46 for 2 yards (D.Fletcher; B.Spikes).
2nd and 10 at NE 46	(Shotgun) D.Thomas up the middle to NE 41 for 5 yards (Cha.Jones).

2nd Quarter:

2nd and 10 at MIA 42	L.Miller left end pushed ob at NE 47 for 11 yards (A.Dennard).
2nd and 5 at NE 42	L.Miller right end to NE 39 for 3 yards (D.Hightower; Chr. Jones).
3rd and 2 at NE 39	L.Miller up the middle to NE 38 for 1 yard (B.Spikes; Cha.Jones).
4th and 1 at NE 38	D.Thomas up the middle to NE 23 for 15 yards (J.Collins; D.McCourty).
1st and 10 at NE 12	D.Thomas up the middle to NE 8 for 4 yards (J.Vellano; Chr. Jones).
2nd and 6 at NE 8	(Shotgun) D.Thomas up the middle to NE 5 for 3 yards (B.Spikes).

1st and 10 at MIA 21	(Shotgun) L.Miller left end ran ob at MIA 32 for 11 yards.
1st and 10 at MIA 32	(Shotgun) L.Miller right guard to 50 for 18 yards (S.Gregory).
1st and 10 at 50	(Shotgun) L.Miller up the middle to NE 44 for 6 yards (D.Hightower).
1st and 10 at NE 38	L.Miller left guard to NE 34 for 4 yards (D.Hightower).
2nd and 6 at NE 34	(Shotgun) L.Miller up the middle to NE 33 for 1 yard (J.Vellano).

3rd Quarter:

2nd and 4 at MIA 49	(Shotgun) L.Miller left tackle to NE 46 for 5 yards (Cha.Jones).
1st and 10 at NE 27	M.Wallace left end to NE 19 for 8 yards (Cha.Jones). reverse

1st and 10 at MIA 20	D.Thomas left tackle to MIA 23 for 3 yards (Cha.Jones).

1st and 10 at MIA 20	(Shotgun) L.Miller right tackle to MIA 19 for -1 yards (Cha.Jones; R.Ninkovich).

1st and 10 at MIA 12	D.Thomas left end to MIA 16 for 4 yards (B.Spikes; Chr. Jones).

4th Quarter:

1st and 10 at MIA 20	L.Miller right guard to MIA 22 for 2 yards (Chr. Jones; D.Hightower).
1st and 10 at MIA 32	L.Miller left tackle to MIA 43 for 11 yards (A.Dennard).

1st and 10 at MIA 39	(Shotgun) L.Miller left guard to MIA 48 for 9 yards (A.Dennard).

On each of the two drives after the Patriots tied the score Miami started off with runs, didn't get the yardage they were looking for, and then became impatient and strictly passed the ball. Two drives later and the pats were up by ten, and then the Dolphins all but abandoned the running game even though there was more than 7 minutes remaining. The Dolphins dropped back to pass on 16 of their final 17 snaps.

 

[IllegalContact]

I highly doubt that a team who ran for 103 yards on 22 carries in the first half and was up 17-3 were just "running to give the QB's arm a rest."

Miami would have happily put up close to 200 yards on the ground had the game not shifted so dramatically. At the 10 minute mark of the 3rd quarter, MIA was marching for a 20-3 lead. Once they missed the FG, the Pats tied the game less than 4 minutes later. The reason why they abandoned the run to some degree is due to the fact that the game setting changed.

How many times have we seen guys like Flacco (2009 AFC divisional loss) not even attempt to throw the ball whatsoever? I believe he had less than 10 attempts in the entire game because the game was never in question. RGIII is another QB who comes to mind whose attempts are often low, especially when the running game is working. There are plenty of times you see him with under 100-150 yds throwing.

Don't take things so literally......

But they abandoned the run while they had the lead. The only bad things that happened to them happened with the dolphins trying to throw the ball......they had a couple of backs to run the ball.....poorly called game on the dolphins part.

The real point is that yeah, the run defense has issues, but nobody's going to run the ball 50 times, so the problem will not as severe

 

[supafly]

The real point is that yeah, the run defense has issues, but nobody's going to run the ball 50 times, so the problem will not as severe

Maybe not 50, but in the early 40's....

Since Wilfork and Mayo went down we're averaging around 160 yards per game on the ground over the past month.

MIA--156 yards allowed for a 5.0 average (31 carries)

NYJ--177 yards allowed for a 3.4 average (52 carries)

NO---131 yards allowed for a 5.0 average (26 carries)

CIN--162 yards allowed for a 4.2 average (39 carries)



Totals per average :

37 carries per game for 157 yards (4.24 average)


The only exception to any team in terms of running the ball was New Orleans, who isn't known for breaking away from their passing game too often.

All of the other 3 games showed teams running per average of 41 carries a game for 165 yards, which would clearly place us at the bottom of the league.

 

[supafly]

The real point is that yeah, the run defense has issues, but nobody's going to run the ball 50 times, so the problem will not as severe

Maybe not 50, but in the 40's....

Since Wilfork and Mayo went down we're averaging around 160 yards per game on the ground over the past month.

MIA--156 yards allowed for a 5.0 average (31 carries)

NYJ--177 yards allowed for a 3.4 average (52 carries)

NO---131 yards allowed for a 5.0 average (26 carries)

CIN--162 yards allowed for a 4.2 average (39 carries)



Totals per average :

37 carries per game for 157 yards (4.24 average)


The only exception to any team in terms of running the ball was New Orleans, who isn't known for breaking away from their passing game too often.

All of the other 3 games showed teams running per average of 41 carries a game for 165 yards, which would clearly place us at the bottom of the league.

The best possible way to combat this would be to get out to an early lead on offense, which would limit the opposition's ability to run, and make them ditch their gameplans to some degree; but I don't see how things are going to change unless we're able to take an early lead and step on the gas. The problem this far is the offense hasn't looked like they're able to do that very often.

 

[Ozymandias]

The run defense isn't very consistent right now. The last 4 teams they've played weren't top 10 rush offenses in terms of YPC or YPG and they all had fairly good games running on the Patriots. These next 2 games (Pitt, Carolina) are against one team with a terrible rushing attack by the numbers but is coming around to form with Le'Veon Bell and the Panthers who have a very good rushing attack (top 10 in YPG), so I expect them to exploit a clear area of weakness just like the other teams did.

If Kelly returns to the line-up after the bye and Talib as well, hopefully that helps the entire defense cohesively as a unit. The run defense as it stands is a concern going forward and is the biggest weakness on the defense. That isn't debatable.

 

[PATRIOTSFANINPA]

I think its a certainty that if the Steelers want to try and revert back to smashmouth football,this will be the game.

This game will be a hard fought battle and to beat Pittsburgh you need to stop the run...I am not concerned about Big Ben and Sanders and Co....my concern lies with the physicality this ground game of this Steelers team will bring to the table sunday and will the Pats be up to the task?..or will they get bullied into submission right up the gut at the line of scrimmage,because that is exactly what we are going to see IMO.

 

[supafly]

I think its a certainty that if the Steelers want to try and revert back to smashmouth football,this will be the game.

This game will be a hard fought battle and to beat Pittsburgh you need to stop the run...I am not concerned about Big Ben and Sanders and Co....my concern lies with the physicality this ground game of this Steelers team will bring to the table sunday and will the Pats be up to the task?..or will they get bullied into submission right up the gut at the line of scrimmage,because that is exactly what we are going to see IMO.

I'd say that last week's win vs BAL was smash mouth football, as they held them to ONE touchdown from a yard out and 3 FG's for a total of 16 pts.

BAL managed a measly 3.2 rushing ave on 26 carries for a total of 82 yards.

 

[supafly]

On the season PIT has given up a total of 5 touchdowns through the air for an overall opposing QB rating of 78.9.

Opponents are averaging 181 yds through the air vs PIT this year.

PIT has a total defensive ranking of #4 this season, and are currently #2 vs the pass.

They are suspect to the running game however, at #27. This will be our best way to try and exploit them. Let's hope we don't play games with Ridley touching the ball on Sunday.

Pittsburgh's main problems this year have been their inability to cause a defensive turnover, their suspect rush defense, and their early struggles running the ball. That seems to have changed slightly with Lev'eon Bell's return to the lineup, as they at least have a capable back now.

On offense, Roethlisberger still scrambles a lot avoiding pressure at times. He has been targeting Brown for the most part, but Emmanuel Sanders also has started to play a bigger part in games, along with the return of Heath Miller. Jericho Cotchery also must be accounted for, as he's one of those prime examples of WR3 and WR4 guys who have the capacity to burn us like we've seen in the past. They've also been dumping the ball off the Bell out of the backfield at times, as I believe that he had 4-5-6 catches last week vs BAL.

 

[ALP]

I'd rather have a good pass D than a good run D...

That's the way of the NFL now adays....even when teams have success running, 90% of the time it will be abandoned

 

[UK_Pat37]

Last week it was 52 carries allowed to the Jets and now getting hit for 5+ gainers on second down, and obviously the big one on 4th.

I haven't checked how many good backs they face the rest of the way but I know there are a few...and with no Vince walking through that door in 2013 this team needs to make a move to help this D out. IMO.

What's your point re: the Jets 52 carries comment?

They had 52 carries for 3.1 yards average. They can run on us that much for that average all they like. When you run that much, it would be a CRIME not to rush for that much. We rushed for more than half what they did on less than half their carries.

They struggled this week against the Dolphins but it wasn't for lack of trying. We're adjusting to the loss of some crucial pieces. When Kelly gets back things will improve a little.

The defence is absolutely fine as a whole. Getting Kelly and Talib back will help stabilise things a little bit more.

 

[AzPatsFan]

What's your point re: the Jets 52 carries comment?

They had 52 carries for 3.1 yards average. They can run on us that much for that average all they like. When you run that much, it would be a CRIME not to rush for that much. We rushed for more than half what they did on less than half their carries.

They struggled this week against the Dolphins but it wasn't for lack of trying. We're adjusting to the loss of some crucial pieces. When Kelly gets back things will improve a little.

The defence is absolutely fine as a whole. Getting Kelly and Talib back will help stabilise things a little bit more.

When Vince and Mayo were there, the rush D was very good. So good that opponents abandoned the rush as such and went almost exclusively to passing,testing our weaker pass defense.

Why invite that? Perhaps our coaches have been forced to weaken against the rush to prevent so many pass attempts. Plus the Pats using run blitzes from Spikes, will sometimes create run losses that could end drives.

Sometimes you invite them to hit you where you are strongest, to shield hits where you are weaker.

In the final analysis, "You are what your record says you are." and that is 6-2, atop the AFCE, and bound for the Playoffs.

 

[captain stone]

Here's hoping that Sopoaga has gas in the tank, Kelly returns after the bye, and Armstead
is activated after the bye. Then a DT rotation of:
Sopoaga - Chris Jones
Kelly - Armstead
Vellano
should at least be able to keep opponents honest.

 

[Deus Irae]

Belichick apparently didn't think the run defense was fine.

 

[IllegalContact]

Belichick apparently didn't think the run defense was fine.

Yes.....based on what he gave up

 

[SVN]

On the season PIT has given up a total of 5 touchdowns through the air for an overall opposing QB rating of 78.9.

Opponents are averaging 181 yds through the air vs PIT this year.

PIT has a total defensive ranking of #4 this season, and are currently #2 vs the pass.

They are suspect to the running game however, at #27. This will be our best way to try and exploit them. Let's hope we don't play games with Ridley touching the ball on Sunday.

Pittsburgh's main problems this year have been their inability to cause a defensive turnover, their suspect rush defense, and their early struggles running the ball. That seems to have changed slightly with Lev'eon Bell's return to the lineup, as they at least have a capable back now.

On offense, Roethlisberger still scrambles a lot avoiding pressure at times. He has been targeting Brown for the most part, but Emmanuel Sanders also has started to play a bigger part in games, along with the return of Heath Miller. Jericho Cotchery also must be accounted for, as he's one of those prime examples of WR3 and WR4 guys who have the capacity to burn us like we've seen in the past. They've also been dumping the ball off the Bell out of the backfield at times, as I believe that he had 4-5-6 catches last week vs BAL.

Surprising , they are usually very good vs the run.