Tebow, Blount, Edelman

[belichick010405]

I understand next time I'll quote and link the article I am referring to.

So - now that you know that plagiarizing someone elses' opinion about a player is not permitted, what kind of role do you think that LeGarrette Blount could have if he makes the final 53 man roster?

Personally, I don't think you know a thing about the Patriots or football for that matter but I will wait for you to prove me wrong.

 

[Demosthenes]

I'm don't know if they would of went 7-4. To be honest probably not. Like I said Tebow contributed to the success, as did the other factors in my eyes. I'm not taking away from Tebow I'm just not going to say he was the sole reason. I'd say they'd of went 5-6 if they remained with Orton.

Couple of points. First, ALL QBs have help along the way from others on the team. I'm sure that people around here readily say that Brady has won 3 SBs, when it's a fact that the Pats had a heck of a defense and a really good kicker at the time, and both of these were a big help.

Yet Brady gets the credit, as is the norm for QBs.


Second point. You just said that the Broncos probably would have gone 5-6 the rest of the year under Orton. To make the playoffs, they had to go 7-4.

Ergo, even with the other points mentioned, IF NOT FOR TEBOW, they wouldn't have made the playoffs. Ergo, Tebow got them there, while Orton wouldn't have.

 

[Deus Irae]

What do you mean? I think those are all legit reasons why they did better in the second half. I'm not saying Tebow wasn't part of the reason but I do believe these factors all came into play as well. Strength of schedule also played a part in the second half.

In the days since I've joined I've appreciated your posts more than any others and also you help with user functions. On this however we may have to agree to disagree, not hard feelings either way.

I'm with you. It's not at all personal. I just don't like that the Tebow bashing is so often based upon false, misleading, or irrelevant (often non-football and bigoted) reasoning. In this case, much of what you posted as fact falls under either completely wrong or misleading. For example (according to Pro-FootballReference.com):

Miller had 5 of his 11.5 sacks before Tebow became a starter in game 6. In games 9-16 (2nd half), Miller had 5 sacks, compared to 6.5 in the first 8 games of the season.

In 2011, Moreno played in 7 games, but only started 2. He only had 10 carries in the games prior to Tebow becoming the starter. McGahee started 14 of his 15 games that season, and he averaged 17 carries per game Pre-Tebow compared to 16 carries per game with Tebow starting.

Tebow didn't start until game 6, so Dumervil played 3 games prior to the Tebow starts. Denver was 0-3 in those games (Oak, GB, SD).

DJ Williams only missed the first 3 games of the season, not "most of the first half".

The Fox and Lloyd arguments you made are both subjective and misleading, but there's no sense getting too much into them. Suffice it to say that Decker had 22 catches in his first 5 games (pre Tebow), and 22 catches once Tebow becamse the starter (11 games), so the Lloyd argument doesn't really hold up there.

 

[belichick010405]

Couple of points. First, ALL QBs have help along the way from others on the team. I'm sure that people around here readily say that Brady has won 3 SBs, when it's a fact that the Pats had a heck of a defense and a really good kicker at the time, and both of these were a big help.

Yet Brady gets the credit, as is the norm for QBs.


Second point. You just said that the Broncos probably would have gone 5-6 the rest of the year under Orton. To make the playoffs, they had to go 7-4.

Ergo, even with the other points mentioned, IF NOT FOR TEBOW, they wouldn't have made the playoffs. Ergo, Tebow got them there, while Orton wouldn't have.

And with that said - Tebow still sucks. 9-26 against the Patriots secondary in 2011 and that should say it all.

 

[manxman2601]

Completion % isn't everything but I would like my QB to complete more passes than he misses, and I suspect so would any NFL coach. Much better chance of continuing drives and scoring instead of punting. But that's just me.

So would most of us. It's just that some of us think that we're not prepared to write someone off completely for the sake of a handful of passes. To suppose that Tebow isn't capable of improving by 35 passes per season (gets him to magical 60%) over the course of his career seems a bit presumptious and lacking in an understanding of how things work.


Now, if you or someone else makes the argument that his mechanics mean that he'll never make that leap then whilst I may disagree, i'd certainly respect it as an argument. But the quality of Tebow criticism recently has amounted to "he sucks!", "his completion percentage is terrible. End of debate" or "he had one sack one time and it was huge". All are poorly argued.

 

[Brady6]

Dude, where in the world are you reading anyone suggesting that Tebow start over Brady ?


I'll argue all day that Tebow is good enough to start in a football league where the likes of Blaine Gabbert, Christian Ponder and Jake Locker are also starters. I'll continue to argue that Tebow most definitely is an NFL QB and that he's actually better than most of his detractors will ever admit.

BUT, that's not saying that he should start over Tom Freaking Brady.

I do believe one of the big problems here is that you personally, and others like you, see any positive defense of Tebow as a defacto demand that he be the starter.

I blame American Champion

All joking aside what you've said is true I could be misinterpreting the intent.

 

[sb1]

Figuring the constant whining about Tebow, I figured that there must be some really good #3 QBs out there that we're missing out on by having this useless Tebow person on our roster. So help me out here. Are we really improving this roster by adding:

*drumroll*

Caleb Hanie
Ryan Lindley
Jimmy Claussen
John Skelton
Kellen Moore
Rex Grossman

etc


So what are people complaining about? Those are the relevant comps for Tebow in terms of his roster position. No matter how much one's dislike for Tebow, try making the argument that any of them makes enough of a roster improvement to be worth a damn.

The real question is: does having TT as QB3 on the roster at spot #53 make the Patriots a better football team than say, another body that adds defensive, receiving or O-Line depth? I guess we'll find out what Bill thinks.

 

[Christiancat]

So - now that you know that plagiarizing someone elses' opinion about a player is not permitted, what kind of role do you think that LeGarrette Blount could have if he makes the final 53 man roster?

Personally, I don't think you know a thing about the Patriots or football for that matter but I will wait for you to prove me wrong.

I do know quite a bit about football and Tim Tebow, but I do sometimes refer to things of reference like the internet when talking about either subject.

 

[Joker]

http://youtu.be/8adfyQQqcus

yeah...we should all shut up and heed the words of the Tebow Love Traing....why, who else has ever had such an inspiring ZERO FOR TWENTY TWO PASSING ATTEMPTS???....answer THAT with a straight face you mongo goons.

 

[Christiancat]

This is my take and I posted it earlier in this thread, but will post it again.

There has been a deliberate "deconstruction" of Tim Tebow by
sports commentators and other "so-called" NFL experts. I am not calling its a
conspiracy, but a "bandwagon" campaign to demonize Tim - and it has
been successful. In 12-16 months he has fallen from a quarterback who
set five PASSING records in a playoff game to a football player (not a
quarterback) who: 1. Will never be an NFL quarterback, 2. Can't pass,
3. can't read defenses, 4. Has terrible footwork, 5. Has terrible arm
motion, and 6. Comes with so much "baggage" that no sane coach would
want him on his team. These alleged deficiencies are not now the
opinions of individual commentators , but made to out to facts

The fact that he led the Broncos to a 7 and 4 record in 2011 after
those same Broncos started the season 1 and 4, and then won a playoff
game when he set the five PASSING records previously mentioned is
ignored or trivialized. In those 11 regular season games Tim threw 271
passes and completed 126. This was accomplished with a subpar group of
receivers who, in addition to having a tough time getting open, dropped
many well-thrown balls (6 against the Bears, 4 against the Vikings, 3
against the Chiefs; and only 8 were thrown).

As to the alleged "baggage" that Tim brings with him - 99% of that
"baggage" has been created by the media - those very people who
continually find reasons why Tim is not, and never will be, an NFL
quarterback. It wasn't his fans that brought those TV cameras and
reporters to the Jet's training camp; and it wasn't his fans that were
talking every day about Tim Tebow on their sports programs!

These same "experts" frequently state that if you are going to play
Tim Tebow, you will have to completely rewrite your playbook to
accommodate his style of play, and this is not easily done or
desirable. Nonsense! The basic set (in a Tebow play from scrimmage)
is a "read-option." Every NFL team has this in their playbook.
Carolina, Washington and San Francisco seem to do well with quarterbacks
who work out of this set. Tim did well in Denver using this system
despite having a coach and general manager who resented his presence.

Along that line (and this is just my opinion), I suspect that Rex
Ryan's reluctance to use Tim as a quarterback for any extended period of
time was the fear that Tim would be successful and thereby create a
"difficult" quarterback situation that Rex Ryan did not want to face.

Tim Tebow has proven that he can be a successful NFL quarterback and
it is a crime that he is not being given the opportunity to again win
some games for an NFL team.

Just because he was a backup QB for the New York Jets and Just because they didn't play him doesn't mean he sucks. It's bandwagon logic IMO.

 

[belichick010405]

I do know quite a bit about football and Tim Tebow, but I do sometimes refer to things of reference like the internet when talking about either subject.

Fine - prove me wrong and write a little about LeGarrette Blount. Until then - you are full of ****.

 

[Joker]

this thread....immediately....

 

[Christiancat]

Fine - prove me wrong and write a little about LeGarrette Blount. Until then - you are full of ****.

can I ask why the hate and profanity?

Take a look at my opinion about Tim tebow a couple posts before your last one.

I am not here to prove anything. Just because I support the Pats and I support Tebow a person you hate dosen't make my opinion any better or worse than yours.

 

[manxman2601]

So - now that you know that plagiarizing someone elses' opinion about a player is not permitted, what kind of role do you think that LeGarrette Blount could have if he makes the final 53 man roster?

Personally, I don't think you know a thing about the Patriots or football for that matter but I will wait for you to prove me wrong.

@Christiancat.

Can i urge you to ignore Belicheck010405. You're distracting him and it's well past his bed time.


What difference does it make whether he's a Patriot fan or not? If all he wants to do is talk Tebow, then that's up to him.

 

[Brady6]

I'm with you. It's not at all personal. I just don't like that the Tebow bashing is so often based upon false, misleading, or irrelevant (often non-football and bigoted) reasoning. In this case, much of what you posted as fact falls under either completely wrong or misleading. For example (according to Pro-FootballReference.com):

Miller had 5 of his 11.5 sacks before Tebow became a starter in game 6. In games 9-16 (2nd half), Miller had 5 sacks, compared to 6.5 in the first 8 games of the season.

In 2011, Moreno played in 7 games, but only started 2. He only had 10 carries in the games prior to Tebow becoming the starter. McGahee started 14 of his 15 games that season, and he averaged 17 carries per game Pre-Tebow compared to 16 carries per game with Tebow starting.

Tebow didn't start until game 6, so Dumervil played 3 games prior to the Tebow starts. Denver was 0-3 in those games (Oak, GB, SD).

DJ Williams only missed the first 3 games of the season, not "most of the first half".

The Fox and Lloyd arguments you made are both subjective and misleading, but there's no sense getting too much into them. Suffice it to say that Decker had 22 catches in his first 5 games (pre Tebow), and 22 catches once Tebow becamse the starter (11 games), so the Lloyd argument doesn't really hold up there.

Honestly you're more right than I was. Last night American Champion made a comment about Tebows persecution being the worst thing he's seen since Jesus. As someone of Jewish decent and who's grandfather was lost in the holocaust I may of let that strike a nerve.

I have no issue with Tebow. Actually enjoyed watching him in college. I don't know if he's a NFL QB. Maybe he can be reminiscent of Doug Flutie. Maybe he becomes a all pro TE. No matter if he's on the team and being paid I sincerely hope he contributes.

 

[Christiancat]

@Christiancat.

Can i urge you to ignore Belicheck010405. You're distracting him and it's well past his bed time.


What difference does it make whether he's a Patriot fan or not? If all he wants to do is talk Tebow, then that's up to him.

Thanks is there an ignore feature if so how can I use it with said poster.

 

[Deus Irae]

this thread....immediately....

Just to make sure....

You do realize that it's been mostly the Anti-Tebow faction and the "Champion" troll ruining a relatively calm discussion, right?

 

[Deus Irae]

Honestly you're more right than I was. Last night American Champion made a comment about Tebows persecution being the worst thing he's seen since Jesus. As someone of Jewish decent and who's grandfather was lost in the holocaust I may of let that strike a nerve.

I have no issue with Tebow. Actually enjoyed watching him in college. I don't know if he's a NFL QB. Maybe he can be reminiscent of Doug Flutie. Maybe he becomes a all pro TE. No matter if he's on the team and being paid I sincerely hope he contributes.

No worries. American Champion was trolling and he got some bites. With him gone, things should settle back down a little.

 

[belichick010405]

can I ask why the hate and profanity?

Take a look at my opinion about Tim tebow a couple posts before your last one.

I am not here to prove anything. Just because I support the Pats and I support Tebow a person you hate dosen't make my opinion any better or worse than yours.

Thats what I thought. What is equally concerning is that this clown plagiarized someone elses' work, passed it off as his own, and the only person calling him out on it was me and one brief mention by manxman.

Pathetic.

 

[Deus Irae]

Thanks is there an ignore feature if so how can I use it with said poster.

I made a post about it in another thread recently. Here it is:

http://www.patsfans.com/new-england-patriots/messageboard/10/1033096-importance-belichick-qb2-page2.html#post3482820

Also, I'm sorry that I seem to have wrongly paired you with A.C.. The coincidences were there, but I should have given it more time to shake out before coming to any conclusion.