Top 20 Greatest Coaches in NFL History

[Ring 6]

Re: Top 20 Greatest Coaches in NFL History: Tom Landry #8

Belichick demonstrated a propensity for justifying stretching the rules that makes them wonder whether he played it straight in other ways.

I'm not sure what this means.
BBs response was that he explained why he felt it was not illegal, specificially that it stated 'for use during the game'.
That is and always has been a reasonable interpretation. How do you consider that a PROPENSITY FOR STRETCHING THE RULES?

 

[jmt57]

Top 20 Greatest Coaches in NFL History: George Halas #4

George Halas comes in at number four, which leaves Lombardi, Walsh and Shula for the top three spots. Halas trivia: he played baseball for the Yankees for one season, as the backup to Babe Ruth.


Greatest Coaches in NFL History - George Halas - ESPN

Any discussion of the most important figures in NFL history has to include George Halas. The longtime player/coach/owner of the Chicago Bears was there from the league's very beginning, and his impact on the league is undeniable.

When "Papa Bear" was done coaching for good after the 1967 season, his 324 total victories were far and away the most in history. That record stood for 27 years until Don Shula surpassed it in 1993. It's safe to say Halas' mark of 40 seasons as a head coach, seven more than anybody else, will never be broken. Under Halas' coaching, the Bears finished with a losing record the same number of times they won a championship -- six. And throughout his coaching tenure, he was one of the most influential owners as the league evolved from its humble beginnings.

...

With Halas as a player and coach, the Staleys finished second in the 14-team APFA's inaugural 1920 season. The owner of Staley Starch Works encouraged Halas to move the team to Chicago, and it was there in 1921 that the Staleys won Halas' first league championship. In 1922, Halas changed his team's name to the Bears as a tribute to the Chicago Cubs, who were letting the football team share Wrigley Field.

Halas played, coached and ran the Bears' business operations through the 1928 season. He remained on as co-owner and gained full control of the team in 1932. He returned to the sideline as head coach in 1933, starting a 10-year stretch that resulted in three more championships, including the record 73-0 destruction of the Washington Redskins in the 1940 title game.

After the Bears won the 1941 championship, Halas re-enlisted in the Navy following the attack on Pearl Harbor. While he was in the South Pacific organizing entertainment for the troops, the Bears won the 1943 championship. Halas returned in 1946 and won his fifth championship that season.

Over the next nine seasons, the Bears reached the playoffs just once, and Halas again stepped away from coaching after the 1955 season. But he couldn't stay away and returned in 1958 for his final 10-season stretch. In 1963, he was inducted as a member of the Pro Football Hall of Fame's first class. Later that year, he won his sixth championship.​

 

[PatsFanSince74]

Re: Top 20 Greatest Coaches in NFL History: Tom Landry #8

I'm not sure what this means.
BBs response was that he explained why he felt it was not illegal, specificially that it stated 'for use during the game'.
That is and always has been a reasonable interpretation. How do you consider that a PROPENSITY FOR STRETCHING THE RULES?

That’s an interesting redaction of my comments, but it’s not what I said.

This is what I said: “There are very knowledgeable football fans…who will have a very sincere and thoughtful (but wrongheaded in my opinion) discussion with you that with Spygate and his subsequent "defense" of his actions, Belichick demonstrated a propensity for justifying stretching the rules that makes them wonder whether he played it straight in other ways and that makes them adjust downwards what their opinion would be if he were just judged on the basis of his record.”

I am not agreeing with that line of thinking. It is, therefore, not what I "consider that" is the case. I am, however, saying that outside New England and our hardcore fan base a lot of thoughtful and reasonable fans see it that way. The distinction between holding a view and reporting the view of others is pretty clear.

Finally, Andy, as much of a Patriots homer that I am (and I defy anyone to question my loyalty), I have always found Belichick's explanation of why he "felt it was not illegal" to be complete, total and utter bull****, to the extent that I admire his ability to offer it with a straight face. Only a contortionist of unearthly flexibility could stretch the words of the league instruction to fit Belichick's interpretation thereof.

I still think Bill Belichick is one of the top five NFL HC's of all time (Brown, Halas, Lombardi and Walsh are my other four), but this was a bad error in judgment that, fairly or unfairly, will cloud his legacy. Or, to use the words of Bob Kraft, something that he was a total "schmuck" to do.

And, Andy, no need to SHOUT.

 

[Ring 6]

Re: Top 20 Greatest Coaches in NFL History: Tom Landry #8

That’s an interesting redaction of my comments, but it’s not what I said.

This is what I said: “There are very knowledgeable football fans…who will have a very sincere and thoughtful (but wrongheaded in my opinion) discussion with you that with Spygate and his subsequent "defense" of his actions, Belichick demonstrated a propensity for justifying stretching the rules that makes them wonder whether he played it straight in other ways and that makes them adjust downwards what their opinion would be if he were just judged on the basis of his record.”

I am not agreeing with that line of thinking. It is, therefore, not what I "consider that" is the case. I am, however, saying that outside New England and our hardcore fan base a lot of thoughtful and reasonable fans see it that way. The distinction between holding a view and reporting the view of others is pretty clear.

Finally, Andy, as much of a Patriots homer that I am (and I defy anyone to question my loyalty), I have always found Belichick's explanation of why he "felt it was not illegal" to be complete, total and utter bull****, to the extent that I admire his ability to offer it with a straight face. Only a contortionist of unearthly flexibility could stretch the words of the league instruction to fit Belichick's interpretation thereof.

I still think Bill Belichick is one of the top five NFL HC's of all time (Brown, Halas, Lombardi and Walsh are my other four), but this was a bad error in judgment that, fairly or unfairly, will cloud his legacy. Or, to use the words of Bob Kraft, something that he was a total "schmuck" to do.

And, Andy, no need to SHOUT.

Not shouting, emphasizing.
I totally don't agree with your characterization that reading the rule as it is written is stretching the words. It literally says for use in the game. Calling him a liar for stating that is far from homeristic.

I'm not sure what you are dancing around.
You first explained that you found people to have a very thoughtful opinion that BB had a propensity to break rules.
Then you stated that you think his explanation was a lie.

You seem to want to say you support BB in the same paragraph as trashing him and his 'bad error in judgment'.
Do we really have to go back and revisit that this is something that many teams did, that the only violation was the spot it was done from, and that the rule does specify use in that game?

 

[PatsFanSince74]

Re: Top 20 Greatest Coaches in NFL History: Tom Landry #8

Not shouting, emphasizing.
I totally don't agree with your characterization that reading the rule as it is written is stretching the words. It literally says for use in the game. Calling him a liar for stating that is far from homeristic.

I'm not sure what you are dancing around.
You first explained that you found people to have a very thoughtful opinion that BB had a propensity to break rules.
Then you stated that you think his explanation was a lie.

You seem to want to say you support BB in the same paragraph as trashing him and his 'bad error in judgment'.
Do we really have to go back and revisit that this is something that many teams did, that the only violation was the spot it was done from, and that the rule does specify use in that game?

No, once again you twist my words.
What I said is that many thoughtful people think he had a propensity to break rules, not that I viewed the opinion itself as "thoughtful." Thoughtful people are sometimes, as I said, wrongheaded. My only point, which you do not address, is that we are kidding ourselves if we don't acknowledge that many hold that view. In my experience, many of those who do hold that view are "thoughtful." You are clearly free to disagree with me in characterizing those people in that way. But don't twist my words.

Yes, indeed, I do think it is possible to hold two divergent ideas in one's head at the same time. I not only "support" BB but view him as one of the greatest HC's of all time (top five on my list, in some pretty good company with Brown, Halas, Lombardi and Walsh).

However, I do think it is possible to support BB and also think he exercised very bad judgment in this case; bad judgment that damaged the Patriots' brand outside New England and beyond avid fanbases like this one. It's why Bob Kraft called him a "schumuck" for doing so. But the same Bob Kraft who called him a schmuck also put the $500,000 fine BB paid right back in his pocket the next season. He, too, apparently can hold divergent ideas in his head at the same time.

Yes, I fully understand that many, if not most!, teams did what BB did. I also know that if they had put the kid with the camera in the front row of the stands, it would have been OK on that very day. But, the memo was, to many of us, clearly intended to stop recording from the sidelines. There is no use, I think, in debating that, and we will just have to agree to disagree on that point.

 

[Ring 6]

Re: Top 20 Greatest Coaches in NFL History: Tom Landry #8

No, once again you twist my words.
What I said is that many thoughtful people think he had a propensity to break rules, not that I viewed the opinion itself as "thoughtful." Thoughtful people are sometimes, as I said, wrongheaded. My only point, which you do not address, is that we are kidding ourselves if we don't acknowledge that many hold that view. In my experience, many of those who do hold that view are "thoughtful." You are clearly free to disagree with me in characterizing those people in that way. But don't twist my words.

Yes, indeed, I do think it is possible to hold two divergent ideas in one's head at the same time. I not only "support" BB but view him as one of the greatest HC's of all time (top five on my list, in some pretty good company with Brown, Halas, Lombardi and Walsh).

However, I do think it is possible to support BB and also think he exercised very bad judgment in this case; bad judgment that damaged the Patriots' brand outside New England and beyond avid fanbases like this one. It's why Bob Kraft called him a "schumuck" for doing so. But the same Bob Kraft who called him a schmuck also put the $500,000 fine BB paid right back in his pocket the next season. He, too, apparently can hold divergent ideas in his head at the same time.

Yes, I fully understand that many, if not most!, teams did what BB did. I also know that if they had put the kid with the camera in the front row of the stands, it would have been OK on that very day. But, the memo was, to many of us, clearly intended to stop recording from the sidelines. There is no use, I think, in debating that, and we will just have to agree to disagree on that point.

The intent of the memo is something neither of us will never know.
The discussion we were having is that you are stating that BBs response that he felt it was allowable if he did not use the tape for that game is BS and that many thoughtful people believe that means he has a propensity to cheat when the memo really actually says that.

 

[jmt57]

Don Shula finishes at number three. Apparently the 347 wins, 19 playoff berths, 36 playoff wins, two championships and a perfect season far outweigh a relatively average rate of championships (two in 33 seasons) and playoff record (19-17) in the minds of the panelists. It seems to be a bit of a double standard that part of the reason that Bill Belichick was not ranked higher than 7th because of two Super Bowl losses, yet Shula goes 2-4 in championship games and winds up third.


Greatest Coaches in NFL History - Don Shula - espn

In an NFL head-coaching career full of highlights, he is best known for setting the career wins record (347, including postseason) and leading the 1972 Miami Dolphins to the NFL's first perfect season.

His 33-year head-coaching career with the Baltimore Colts and Dolphins included a record 19 playoff appearances and just two sub-.500 seasons. Shula led teams to a record six Super Bowls, with his Dolphins winning twice (1972 and 1973 seasons), and he was the first coach to reach three consecutive Super Bowls (1971-73 seasons).

Shula cut his teeth in the NFL as a defensive back for three teams and played for the likes of coaching legends Paul Brown (two seasons) and Weeb Ewbank (three seasons). After his playing days were over, Shula worked two seasons as a college assistant -- including one under Brown disciple Blanton Collier at Kentucky -- before becoming the Detroit Lions' defensive coordinator in 1960. In 1963, at age 33, Shula replaced Ewbank as the Colts' head coach. In the 1968 season, Shula's NFL champion Colts lost to Ewbank's New York Jets in Super Bowl III, the first AFL-NFL championship to officially be called a Super Bowl.

In 1970, the Dolphins lured Shula away from Baltimore and made him the second coach in franchise history -- succeeding George Wilson, whom Shula coached under in Detroit. Shula led Miami to its first playoff berth that season and its first AFC championship a year later. Then came the perfect season and back-to-back championships. The Dolphins also went to the Super Bowl under Shula in the 1982 and 1984 seasons.

Shula retired following the 1995 season, his 26th in Miami, after taking the Dolphins to the playoffs for the 16th time. He was inducted into the Pro Football Hall of Fame in 1997.

In the early '70s, Shula and Dolphins defensive coordinator Bill Arnsparger were at the forefront of bringing the 3-4 defense from the college ranks to the NFL. Shula's most successful assistant was Chuck Noll, who served as the Colts' defensive backfield coach and coordinator for three seasons before beginning a long, successful run as the Pittsburgh Steelers' head coach in 1969.​

 

[jmt57]

We interrupt TebowMania to bring you TWWL's number two head coach in the history of the NFL. I had totally forgotten that Walsh could have and should have succeeded Paul Brown as the Head coach of the Cincinnati Bengals.

Greatest Coaches in NFL History - Bill Walsh - espn

ill Walsh, considered an offensive genius and father of the West Coast offense, turned the San Francisco 49ers into a dynasty in the 1980s. In 10 seasons under Walsh, the 49ers won six NFC West titles and three Super Bowls.

The offensive philosophy that Walsh originally subscribed to was the Sid Gillman passing attack, which Walsh adopted from Gillman disciple Al Davis as a Raiders assistant in 1966. Walsh's big break, however, came in 1968, when he joined the staff of the legendary Paul Brown with the expansion Cincinnati Bengals after considering quitting football in favor of law school. In Cincinnati, Walsh modified Gillman's system and incorporated a heavy dose of short passes, creating what ultimately would become known as the West Coast offense in San Francisco.

The relationship between Walsh and Brown was icy and often punctuated by friction. Walsh felt constricted by Brown and believed his boss was holding him back from becoming a head coach. Following eight seasons in Cincinnati, Walsh left the Bengals when he was passed over to succeed Brown as head coach in 1976. Offensive line coach Bill Johnson got the job instead, and Walsh believed that Brown subsequently tried to blackball him in NFL circles.

After helping to develop future Hall of Fame quarterback Dan Fouts while serving as an assistant with the San Diego Chargers for one season, Walsh became head coach at Stanford, where he remained for two seasons. Walsh was named head coach and general manager of the 49ers in 1979. The previous season, the 49ers had gone 2-14, having won only 31 of their previous 86 games. The 1981 team won the Super Bowl, and the 1984 and 1988 teams repeated the feat.​

 

[Jangles]

Do you guys think Bill would have made the top 20 if he'd picked up Tebow before this list came out?

I don't

 

[Koma]

Do you guys think Bill would have made the top 20 if he'd picked up Tebow before this list came out?

I don't

He would have cracked the top 5 easy, maybe top 3.

 

[PatsFanSince74]

Re: Top 20 Greatest Coaches in NFL History: Tom Landry #8

The intent of the memo is something neither of us will never know.
The discussion we were having is that you are stating that BBs response that he felt it was allowable if he did not use the tape for that game is BS and that many thoughtful people believe that means he has a propensity to cheat when the memo really actually says that.

Actually, you are conflating the statements in the NFL Operations Manual and what was stated in the Memorandum from the League Office. It's a common error in this case.

You are quite right. The NFL Game Operations Manual (page 105) stated: "No video recording devices of any kind are permitted to be in use in the coaches' booth, on the field, or in the locker room during the game [my emphasis]...All video shooting locations must be enclosed on all sides with a roof overhead." You are accurate in representing the first part of that statement.

However, he was sanctioned for not abiding by the Memorandum from Ray Anderson, NFL VP of Football Operations, which was intended to clarify the above statement in the Ops manual. The Memorandum was quite clear: "videotaping of any type, including but not limited to taping of an opponent's offensive or defensive signals, is prohibited on the sidelines, in the coaches' booth, in the locker room, or at any other locations accessible to club staff members during the game" (thus, BTW, my statement in my first post on this topic to the effect that if the kid who did the recording had bought a ticket in the first row behind the bench and done it from there the taping would have been legal).

Belichick is being a good lawyer on his own behalf by stating that he thought he was following the Operations Manual (we'll just let the "enclosed on all sides with a roof overhead" thingie slide by among friends for the purpose of discussion here) and conveniently ignoring what he was actually being accused of violating. To my way of thinking, it's a transparent fig leaf intended to allow him to save face. Outside of New England, many "thoughtful people" do indeed see through the attempted defense.

As far as I'm concerned, he's still one of the five greatest HC's in NFL history, but he ****ed up big time in this regard. I have no trouble holding those two, divergent ideas in my head at the same time.

And let me be very clear. I don't think he "****ed up" by doing what just about every other Coach or Assistant, including Mangini, had done in the past. I feel that he "****ed up" by exposing the franchise and its reputation to the ridiculous and unfair attacks it suffered in the media and elsewhere as a result; thus, to use the words of Bob Kraft, he was indeed a "schmuck" for being so careless with the brand of the team.

 

[Ring 6]

Re: Top 20 Greatest Coaches in NFL History: Tom Landry #8

Actually, you are conflating the statements in the NFL Operations Manual and what was stated in the Memorandum from the League Office. It's a common error in this case.

You are quite right. The NFL Game Operations Manual (page 105) stated: "No video recording devices of any kind are permitted to be in use in the coaches' booth, on the field, or in the locker room during the game [my emphasis]...All video shooting locations must be enclosed on all sides with a roof overhead." You are accurate in representing the first part of that statement


However, he was sanctioned for not abiding by the Memorandum from Ray Anderson, NFL VP of Football Operations, which was intended to clarify the above statement in the Ops manual. The Memorandum was quite clear: "videotaping of any type, including but not limited to taping of an opponent's offensive or defensive signals, is prohibited on the sidelines, in the coaches' booth, in the locker room, or at any other locations accessible to club staff members during the game" (thus, BTW, my statement in my first post on this topic to the effect that if the kid who did the recording had bought a ticket in the first row behind the bench and done it from there the taping would have been legal).

This is where you are mistaken. The memo was not a rule change, it was a reminder of the rule. I can see now why you think BBs explanation was poor, because you don't understand the rule.
By rule, you must be in the area described in the rule to tape anything to be used during the game. Your guy who bought a ticket would be no different than the Patriot employee filming from that spot.

Belichick is being a good lawyer on his own behalf by stating that he thought he was following the Operations Manual (we'll just let the "enclosed on all sides with a roof overhead" thingie slide by among friends for the purpose of discussion here) and conveniently ignoring what he was actually being accused of violating. To my way of thinking, it's a transparent fig leaf intended to allow him to save face. Outside of New England, many "thoughtful people" do indeed see through the attempted defense.

Totally your opinion, and one that is not well supported.

As far as I'm concerned, he's still one of the five greatest HC's in NFL history, but he ****ed up big time in this regard. I have no trouble holding those two, divergent ideas in my head at the same time.

That is great, since both are your opinion.

And let me be very clear. I don't think he "****ed up" by doing what just about every other Coach or Assistant, including Mangini, had done in the past. I feel that he "****ed up" by exposing the franchise and its reputation to the ridiculous and unfair attacks it suffered in the media and elsewhere as a result; thus, to use the words of Bob Kraft, he was indeed a "schmuck" for being so careless with the brand of the team.

So what he did was OK but getting caught is @#$@ing up?

 

[reflexblue]

Personally , when I saw the Voting 'Panel' of 'Experts' I stopped paying much attention to this list.

Cowherd ? Rick Reilly ?Chadiha ?

Gregg Easterbrook... are you fcking kidding me????

 

[captain stone]

Don Shula finishes at number three. Apparently the 347 wins, 19 playoff berths, 36 playoff wins, two championships and a perfect season far outweigh a relatively average rate of championships (two in 33 seasons) and playoff record (19-17) in the minds of the panelists. It seems to be a bit of a double standard that part of the reason that Bill Belichick was not ranked higher than 7th because of two Super Bowl losses, yet Shula goes 2-4 in championship games and winds up third.


Greatest Coaches in NFL History - Don Shula - espn

In an NFL head-coaching career full of highlights, he is best known for setting the career wins record (347, including postseason) and leading the 1972 Miami Dolphins to the NFL's first perfect season.

His 33-year head-coaching career with the Baltimore Colts and Dolphins included a record 19 playoff appearances and just two sub-.500 seasons. Shula led teams to a record six Super Bowls, with his Dolphins winning twice (1972 and 1973 seasons), and he was the first coach to reach three consecutive Super Bowls (1971-73 seasons).

Shula cut his teeth in the NFL as a defensive back for three teams and played for the likes of coaching legends Paul Brown (two seasons) and Weeb Ewbank (three seasons). After his playing days were over, Shula worked two seasons as a college assistant -- including one under Brown disciple Blanton Collier at Kentucky -- before becoming the Detroit Lions' defensive coordinator in 1960. In 1963, at age 33, Shula replaced Ewbank as the Colts' head coach. In the 1968 season, Shula's NFL champion Colts lost to Ewbank's New York Jets in Super Bowl III, the first AFL-NFL championship to officially be called a Super Bowl.

In 1970, the Dolphins lured Shula away from Baltimore and made him the second coach in franchise history -- succeeding George Wilson, whom Shula coached under in Detroit. Shula led Miami to its first playoff berth that season and its first AFC championship a year later. Then came the perfect season and back-to-back championships. The Dolphins also went to the Super Bowl under Shula in the 1982 and 1984 seasons.

Shula retired following the 1995 season, his 26th in Miami, after taking the Dolphins to the playoffs for the 16th time. He was inducted into the Pro Football Hall of Fame in 1997.

In the early '70s, Shula and Dolphins defensive coordinator Bill Arnsparger were at the forefront of bringing the 3-4 defense from the college ranks to the NFL. Shula's most successful assistant was Chuck Noll, who served as the Colts' defensive backfield coach and coordinator for three seasons before beginning a long, successful run as the Pittsburgh Steelers' head coach in 1969.​

Don Shula at #3 all-time is an absolute feckin joke.

 

[jmt57]

Who were you expecting here, the frankenstein combination of Clive Rush and John Mazur?


Greatest Coaches in NFL History - Vince Lombardi - espn

Vince Lombardi took over a downtrodden Green Bay Packers team in 1959 and turned it into professional football's most dominant organization of the 1960s.

Lombardi, a tireless worker with exacting standards, led Green Bay to five championships in nine seasons as head coach. His Packers won the first two Super Bowls, and the trophy given to the league champion now bears his name. In his 15 seasons as an NFL assistant and head coach, his teams never had a losing season.

Lombardi was born in Brooklyn and played college football at Fordham University, at which he was a member of the offensive line known as "The Seven Blocks of Granite." After a stint coaching high school football and working as an assistant at Fordham, Lombardi joined the staff of legendary Red Blaik at Army in 1949.

His next move was to the New York Giants, for whom he was offensive backfield coach (while Tom Landry was defensive coordinator) for five seasons (1954-58) under Jim Lee Howell. The 1956 Giants won the NFL championship, a taste of things to come for Lombardi.

The Packers hadn't finished above .500 since 1947 -- while team founder Curly Lambeau was still roaming the sidelines -- when they hired Lombardi as head coach and general manager on Jan. 28, 1959. Lombardi was offered the job only after Iowa coach Forrest Evashevski turned it down.

The team went 7-5 in his first season for its highest win total since 1944. Green Bay played in the NFL Championship Game in Lombardi's second season and won it all in 1961 and '62. In 1965, the Packers started a run of three consecutive championships to bring Lombardi's total to five.

The Packers dominated the Kansas City Chiefs 35-10 to cap off the 1966 season in the first matchup between the champions of the NFL and AFL. A year later, it was another Green Bay Super Bowl blowout, 33-14 over the Oakland Raiders.​

 

[captain stone]

Wasn't that supposed to be Phil Bengston?

 

[PatsFanSince74]

Re: Top 20 Greatest Coaches in NFL History: Tom Landry #8

This is where you are mistaken. The memo was not a rule change, it was a reminder of the rule. I can see now why you think BBs explanation was poor, because you don't understand the rule.
By rule, you must be in the area described in the rule to tape anything to be used during the game. Your guy who bought a ticket would be no different than the Patriot employee filming from that spot.



Totally your opinion, and one that is not well supported.


That is great, since both are your opinion.


So what he did was OK but getting caught is @#$@ing up?

We just have to disagree on this. The intent of the memo was clear and understood by nearly everyone objective who has reviewed it and, apparently, by Bob Kraft as well. If you choose to take a different view, I'm not going to dissuade you; it's a mutual waste of time to proceed.

To most folks outside New England, my position is viewed as excessively biased towards Belichick and the Patriots because I think the fines and loss of a Number One were excessive; many, probably "most," outside the region feel that BB should have been suspended as well and that Goodell participated in a coverup to protect Bob Kraft by destroying the remaining tapes. I thoroughly disagree with both views.

To many on this Board, I am unreasonable for acknowledging that the League was within its rights to criticize and discipline the Patriots and Belichick.

I can live with both.

 

[Christiancat]

cool list of coaches