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4 Picks for #29

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I'm clearly not wrong. The numbers don't lie.

The Numbers??

You mean the Numbers that somebody spun out'f thin air that you swallow as Gospel?? :bricks:

Those numbers??
 
Does anyone know anything about the Harvard chart? Given the increased used of data analytics in the NFL (and elsewhere in sports), it's not too surprising that there's more than one view on draft pick value and and that some teams use their own chart.

Per ESPN's Mike Sando:

Fifth trade

New England Patriots give up: 29th pick

Minnesota Vikings give up: 52nd, 83rd, 102nd and 229th picks

Old trade chart verdict: no clear winner. The Patriots received picks worth 649.5 points for a pick worth 640 points. That's a wash. Drake: "The team trading down (Patriots) received excess value equal to zero number one picks, 1 percent more than they traded away."

Harvard chart verdict: Patriots win big. They received picks worth 410.9 points for a pick worth 208.7 points. Drake: "The team trading down (Patriots) received excess value equal to .41 number one picks, 98 percent more value than they traded away."

Sando comment: This looks like a knockout victory for the Patriots on the Harvard chart. Both teams came into the draft with a need at wide receiver. The Vikings took one, Cordarrelle Patterson. I'll be interested to see whether Patterson develops into a more dynamic threat than anyone the Patriots might select with those later selections.​

What charts say about '13 first-round trades - NFC West Blog - ESPN
 
The Numbers??

You mean the Numbers that somebody spun out'f thin air that you swallow as Gospel?? :bricks:

Those numbers??

I don't swallow them as gospel, as you put it. I accept that they are what's used in trades. You're arguing a point where you are clearly wrong, and you're arguing it with someone who's fine with the trade down, and is just pointing out that it was a fair and even trade according to the trade chart that teams use.
 
Does anyone know anything about the Harvard chart?

Given the increased used of data analytics in the NFL (and elsewhere in sports), it's not too surprising that there's more than one view on draft pick value and and that some teams use their own chart.

Per ESPN's Mike Sando:

Fifth trade

New England Patriots give up: 29th pick

Minnesota Vikings give up: 52nd, 83rd, 102nd and 229th picks

Old trade chart verdict: no clear winner. The Patriots received picks worth 649.5 points for a pick worth 640 points. That's a wash. Drake: "The team trading down (Patriots) received excess value equal to zero number one picks, 1 percent more than they traded away."

Harvard chart verdict: Patriots win big. They received picks worth 410.9 points for a pick worth 208.7 points. Drake: "The team trading down (Patriots) received excess value equal to .41 number one picks, 98 percent more value than they traded away."

Sando comment: This looks like a knockout victory for the Patriots on the Harvard chart. Both teams came into the draft with a need at wide receiver. The Vikings took one, Cordarrelle Patterson. I'll be interested to see whether Patterson develops into a more dynamic threat than anyone the Patriots might select with those later selections.​

What charts say about '13 first-round trades - NFC West Blog - ESPN

Nicely Presented.

1 ~ I'm familiar with the Harvard Chart, of course. It's far more compelling than the outdated classic Draft Value Chart which certain folks *cough cough* Deuce Awry * pump as Gospel.

It's ultimately a matter of Opinion, but if you apply the Historical Data, the Patriots have acquired far more Opportunity than they've traded...and that is seriously cool!!
 
You may be doing a bit of self-projecting here, as I'm clearly not wrong. The numbers don't lie.

This draft value chart does not evaluate talent and has no idea how the draft unfolds. It's rigid minded to follow a chart religiously like your doing. Bottom line is the so called experts claim that the usual value in the first round isn't there this year and the depth of talent of the 2nd and 3rd is equal to some of the late first round picks.

But ok, according to the all mighty draft value chart made in 1992 you are correct. But to me it's not the Holy Bible or anything. Imo it doesn't apply to this years talent pool and should be discarded.

A more accurate way to judge would be to give each prospect you value a rating and then make your own draft chart based on your own scout evaluations
 
...according to the all mighty draft value chart made in 1992 you are correct...

And that's the end of the story. The rest is just people needlessly trying to spin.
 
Here's more information on the Harvard chart:

About that old NFL draft-pick value chart - NFC West Blog - ESPN

In Sando's post earlier today (which I included in a prior post), he noted that San Francisco uses a proprietary draft value chart. The notion that teams use different value charts makes this all the more interesting. If a given team's model is superior in assessing value, that team has a competitive advantage relative to other teams and could exploit that advantage by making trades that would not appear to make sense according to the conventional wisdom.
 
Does anyone know anything about the Harvard chart? Given the increased used of data analytics in the NFL (and elsewhere in sports), it's not too surprising that there's more than one view on draft pick value and and that some teams use their own chart.

Per ESPN's Mike Sando:

Fifth trade

New England Patriots give up: 29th pick

Minnesota Vikings give up: 52nd, 83rd, 102nd and 229th picks

Old trade chart verdict: no clear winner. The Patriots received picks worth 649.5 points for a pick worth 640 points. That's a wash. Drake: "The team trading down (Patriots) received excess value equal to zero number one picks, 1 percent more than they traded away."

Harvard chart verdict: Patriots win big. They received picks worth 410.9 points for a pick worth 208.7 points. Drake: "The team trading down (Patriots) received excess value equal to .41 number one picks, 98 percent more value than they traded away."

Sando comment: This looks like a knockout victory for the Patriots on the Harvard chart. Both teams came into the draft with a need at wide receiver. The Vikings took one, Cordarrelle Patterson. I'll be interested to see whether Patterson develops into a more dynamic threat than anyone the Patriots might select with those later selections.​

What charts say about '13 first-round trades - NFC West Blog - ESPN


Very interesting.

A link to a better explanation:

How to Value NFL Draft Picks | The Harvard College Sports Analysis Collective
 
Does anyone know anything about the Harvard chart? Given the increased used of data analytics in the NFL (and elsewhere in sports), it's not too surprising that there's more than one view on draft pick value and and that some teams use their own chart.

Per ESPN's Mike Sando:

Fifth trade

New England Patriots give up: 29th pick

Minnesota Vikings give up: 52nd, 83rd, 102nd and 229th picks

Old trade chart verdict: no clear winner. The Patriots received picks worth 649.5 points for a pick worth 640 points. That's a wash. Drake: "The team trading down (Patriots) received excess value equal to zero number one picks, 1 percent more than they traded away."

Harvard chart verdict: Patriots win big. They received picks worth 410.9 points for a pick worth 208.7 points. Drake: "The team trading down (Patriots) received excess value equal to .41 number one picks, 98 percent more value than they traded away."

Sando comment: This looks like a knockout victory for the Patriots on the Harvard chart. Both teams came into the draft with a need at wide receiver. The Vikings took one, Cordarrelle Patterson. I'll be interested to see whether Patterson develops into a more dynamic threat than anyone the Patriots might select with those later selections.​

What charts say about '13 first-round trades - NFC West Blog - ESPN

The problem with the Harvard chart is that it relies entirely on Pro Football Reference's Career AV stat, which has its own problems when it comes to valuing players (imo).

How to Value NFL Draft Picks | The Harvard College Sports Analysis Collective

The gist of the problem, to me, with the methodology of the Harvard chart is that it makes no adjustment for minimal level Career AVs. There should be some baseline Career AV subtracted from ALL players to make the analysis more meaningful in terms of gauging the picks. Using a Career AV of 0 as the floor distorts the analysis.

Look at the example of Josh McCown that the author uses to explain his methodolgy. McCown has a CAV of 15, Rodney Harrison in his example has a CAV of 74. According to his analysis Harrison is 5 times more valuable than McCown. In the real world of trying to win championships in the NFL, I would say Harrison is closer to 50 times more valuable.

His model overvalues back-up level CAV's (very minor contributors) because his floor is 0 CAV (a guy who never sees the field). This small starting assumption, to me, undermines his results. Yes, McCown is better than a guy who sees the field a few times and finishes with a CAV of 3, but not, imo, 5 times better. To me, both of those players fall into a much more closely comparable category of "non-factors."

Obviously, every metric is subjective in some way. And each annual draft field varies, making some charts more applicable than others depending on the year.

But count me in the camp that thinks the Pats did pretty well on the trade, especially considering the other first round trades and this year's glut of 2nd-tier (but good) talent. But I wouldn't say they fleeced or robbed anyone. As for a true judgment of the trade we will need to wait and see who you guys take with the picks and how those players and Patterson perform.
 
And that's the end of the story. The rest is just people needlessly trying to spin.

Fair enough -- and the Dow Jones Industrial Average remains the measure of market performance. End of story.

Forgive me if I don't invest either my money or my draft picks with your firm?
 
But ok, according to the all mighty draft value chart made in 1992 you are correct. But to me it's not the Holy Bible or anything. Imo it doesn't apply to this years talent pool and should be discarded.

A more accurate way to judge would be to give each prospect you value a rating and then make your own draft chart based on your own scout evaluations

And that's the end of the story.

Fair enough -- and the Dow Jones Industrial Average remains the measure of market performance. End of story.

Forgive me if I don't invest either my money or my draft picks with your firm?

For the WIN, Sister!!
 
The problem with the Harvard chart is that it relies entirely on Pro Football Reference's Career AV stat, which has its own problems when it comes to valuing players (imo).

How to Value NFL Draft Picks | The Harvard College Sports Analysis Collective

The gist of the problem, to me, with the methodology of the Harvard chart is that it makes no adjustment for minimal level Career AVs. There should be some baseline Career AV subtracted from ALL players to make the analysis more meaningful in terms of gauging the picks. Using a Career AV of 0 as the floor distorts the analysis.

Look at the example of Josh McCown that the author uses to explain his methodolgy. McCown has a CAV of 15, Rodney Harrison in his example has a CAV of 74. According to his analysis Harrison is 5 times more valuable than McCown. In the real world of trying to win championships in the NFL, I would say Harrison is closer to 50 times more valuable.

His model overvalues back-up level CAV's (very minor contributors) because his floor is 0 CAV (a guy who never sees the field). This small starting assumption, to me, undermines his results. Yes, McCown is better than a guy who sees the field a few times and finishes with a CAV of 3, but not, imo, 5 times better. To me, both of those players fall into a much more closely comparable category of "non-factors."

Obviously, every metric is subjective in some way. And each annual draft field varies, making some charts more applicable than others depending on the year.

But count me in the camp that thinks the Pats did pretty well on the trade, especially considering the other first round trades and this year's glut of 2nd-tier (but good) talent. But I wouldn't say they fleeced or robbed anyone. As for a true judgment of the trade we will need to wait and see who you guys take with the picks and how those players and Patterson perform.

Excellent points.

The original chart developed by the Cowboys was a model and a rudimentary one at that. The game itself has changed significantly and the economics (salary cap, draft pick monetary compensation per new CBA) have changed dramatically. It stands to reason that teams are using their own models that have varying degrees of sophistication and accuracy. Trying to assess a trade using the old chart is an exercise in futility for sportswriters and fans.

But as is true in business everywhere, superior analytic capability and a better understanding of underlying value can create meaningful competitive advantages.
 

The numbers don't lie.

The Numbers??

You mean the Numbers that somebody spun out'f thin air that you swallow as Gospel?? :bricks:

Those numbers??

I don't swallow them as gospel, as you put it.

This draft value chart does not evaluate talent and has no idea how the draft unfolds. It's rigid minded to follow a chart religiously like your doing.

But ok, according to the all mighty draft value chart made in 1992 you are correct.

And that's the end of the story.

No, you're not swallowing the Draft Value Chart as Gospel at all!!
 
Felger has math problems. He says that he keeps hearing they traded "one pick for four picks" and said no they didn't and they only got three. Last time I checked they gave Minnesota one pick and got four picks in return. So he is wrong and "they" are right.
 
Anatomy of a trade:

John Morgan @AllThingsPats 12m

Interesting, Caserio rather than BB in charge @Patriots EXCLUSIVE VID: Inside #Pats draft room during round 1 trade: Patriots Today - Inside the draft room
 
Going by this chart which has been developed over the short sample size of the last two drafts, the results are:

Patriots:
29 (51.07)
Overall = 51.07

Vikings:
52 (29.41)
83 (13.98)
102 (8.86)
229 (0.46)
Overall = 52.71

Pretty much a wash.

Apologies if this has been posted before (I have not read the whole thread)!

IMO the real value in this trade lies in the flexibility it now allows the Patriots to take multiple players of perceived talent level similar to pick 29 in the second and third rounds.
 
No, you're not swallowing the Draft Value Chart as Gospel at all!!Originally Posted by Deus Irae

And that's the end of the story.


Lmao, once again Deus believes that he is the one to decide when someone can post a response or not.

Foul and a five point penalty to OTG for responding illegally when deus has declared the discussion OVER!!!
 
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