Five Kids - Five Questions Marks

[mgteich]

These five are obviously important because they are assets who have a great deal of spread in their potential contributions. At the moment, it is MORE important to consider that Belichick's evaluation of each of these might significantly free agency and the draft.

For example, if Cannon is ready to start at RT, then Vollmer (or another starting RT) is less of a priority. Obviously, if Cannon is considered a backup, the we have a MAJOR need for a starting RT.

The evaluation of Wilson affects the entire secondary.

WILSON
Is Wilson ready to be our top safety, with McCourty moving back to corner?
Is Wilson ready to start?
Is Wilson ready to be a solid backup and possible starter, sharing 2 reps with Gregory?
Is Wilson a #4 safety who could turn out to be more.

CANNON
Is Cannon ready to start at RT?
Is Cannon ready to start at RG? Is he better than Connolly as a RG?

DENNARD
He is clearly locked in as one of our top 3 corners that play in 50% of the reps or more. Should we really depend on him as our top corner? as our #2?

DOWLING
Should we count on him as more the our #4 CB? Should we even count on him for that?

FRANCIS
Has he really shown anything? Should Francis be consider any more than a bottom of the roster backup?
=============

I have not include JONES and HIGHTOWER who we clearly expect big things from. I have not listed Bequette because he has shown so little that we cannot reasonably count on him for serious contributions this year, although he might surprise.

 

[Claremonster]

These five are obviously important because they are assets who have a great deal of spread in their potential contributions. At the moment, it is MORE important to consider that Belichick's evaluation of each of these might significantly free agency and the draft.

For example, if Cannon is ready to start at RT, then Vollmer (or another starting RT) is less of a priority. Obviously, if Cannon is considered a backup, the we have a MAJOR need for a starting RT.

The evaluation of Wilson affects the entire secondary.

WILSON
Is Wilson ready to be our top safety, with McCourty moving back to corner?
Is Wilson ready to start?
Is Wilson ready to be a solid backup and possible starter, sharing 2 reps with Gregory?
Is Wilson a #4 safety who could turn out to be more.

CANNON
Is Cannon ready to start at RT?
Is Cannon ready to start at RG? Is he better than Connolly as a RG?

DENNARD
He is clearly locked in as one of our top 3 corners that play in 50% of the reps or more. Should we really depend on him as our top corner? as our #2?

DOWLING
Should we count on him as more the our #4 CB? Should we even count on him for that?

FRANCIS
Has he really shown anything? Should Francis be consider any more than a bottom of the roster backup?
=============

I have not include JONES and HIGHTOWER who we clearly expect big things from. I have not listed Bequette because he has shown so little that we cannot reasonably count on him for serious contributions this year, although he might surprise.

All of your questions, are questions. All of your questions will eventually be answered though.

I'm also pondering them too.

Dennard showed a lot of promise imo.

Wilson also did.

Cannon as well.

Dowling proves to be fragile china. If he is finally healthy, this would be a positive.

Is Bequette the modern day Bruschi? Tedy didn't do much for a few years.

Many questions indeed...

 

[Ring 6]

These five are obviously important because they are assets who have a great deal of spread in their potential contributions. At the moment, it is MORE important to consider that Belichick's evaluation of each of these might significantly free agency and the draft.

For example, if Cannon is ready to start at RT, then Vollmer (or another starting RT) is less of a priority. Obviously, if Cannon is considered a backup, the we have a MAJOR need for a starting RT.

The evaluation of Wilson affects the entire secondary.

WILSON
Is Wilson ready to be our top safety, with McCourty moving back to corner?
Is Wilson ready to start?
Is Wilson ready to be a solid backup and possible starter, sharing 2 reps with Gregory?
Is Wilson a #4 safety who could turn out to be more.

CANNON
Is Cannon ready to start at RT?
Is Cannon ready to start at RG? Is he better than Connolly as a RG?

DENNARD
He is clearly locked in as one of our top 3 corners that play in 50% of the reps or more. Should we really depend on him as our top corner? as our #2?

DOWLING
Should we count on him as more the our #4 CB? Should we even count on him for that?

FRANCIS
Has he really shown anything? Should Francis be consider any more than a bottom of the roster backup?
=============

I have not include JONES and HIGHTOWER who we clearly expect big things from. I have not listed Bequette because he has shown so little that we cannot reasonably count on him for serious contributions this year, although he might surprise.

What is intersting is how much they will be relied upon, which we will find out in FA and the draft.
If Vollmer comes back, or we sign a RT, then Cannon is just a bonus.
Same with Wilson, if we sign a corner and keep McCourty at safety,Wilson can compete for any role from starter to inactive reserve.
Francis right now is the #3 DE. I don't think he has shown me enough to feel good about that. I'd like him to progress, but comketing for snaps as a sub inside rusher, and actually a roster spot.
I would love to have 2 better corners than Dennard, and Dowling already has to be viewed as a wild card.

 

[mgteich]

I agree with all your comments.

Most interesting to me at this point is how Belichick's evaluation of these players will affect re-signings, free agency and the draft. As you say, we shall see.

What is intersting is how much they will be relied upon, which we will find out in FA and the draft.
If Vollmer comes back, or we sign a RT, then Cannon is just a bonus.
Same with Wilson, if we sign a corner and keep McCourty at safety,Wilson can compete for any role from starter to inactive reserve.
Francis right now is the #3 DE. I don't think he has shown me enough to feel good about that. I'd like him to progress, but comketing for snaps as a sub inside rusher, and actually a roster spot.
I would love to have 2 better corners than Dennard, and Dowling already has to be viewed as a wild card.

 

[RayClay]

These five are obviously important because they are assets who have a great deal of spread in their potential contributions. At the moment, it is MORE important to consider that Belichick's evaluation of each of these might significantly free agency and the draft.

For example, if Cannon is ready to start at RT, then Vollmer (or another starting RT) is less of a priority. Obviously, if Cannon is considered a backup, the we have a MAJOR need for a starting RT.

The evaluation of Wilson affects the entire secondary.

WILSON
Is Wilson ready to be our top safety, with McCourty moving back to corner?
Is Wilson ready to start?
Is Wilson ready to be a solid backup and possible starter, sharing 2 reps with Gregory?
Is Wilson a #4 safety who could turn out to be more.

CANNON
Is Cannon ready to start at RT?
Is Cannon ready to start at RG? Is he better than Connolly as a RG?

DENNARD
He is clearly locked in as one of our top 3 corners that play in 50% of the reps or more. Should we really depend on him as our top corner? as our #2?

DOWLING
Should we count on him as more the our #4 CB? Should we even count on him for that?

FRANCIS
Has he really shown anything? Should Francis be consider any more than a bottom of the roster backup?
=============

I have not include JONES and HIGHTOWER who we clearly expect big things from. I have not listed Bequette because he has shown so little that we cannot reasonably count on him for serious contributions this year, although he might surprise.

Wilson
1no 1b Mcourty should play safety, regardless of any other hypothetical.
2unknown
3best answer of these choices
4Who's number three?

CANNON
1Unknown, besides we've got one presently.
2aEven more unknown. 2b"better than Connolly" a no now, b totally unknown, future. c why even a question, at this point?

DENNARD

Let him win the job, he can play corner.

Dowling

Count on what? Come to camp, win a job, don't get hurt.


FRANCIS Has he really shown anything?

He's shown everything, as far as I'm concerned. He's hard working, he's motivated and he can perform, even being green in terms of technique, I'm guessing.

Why look a gift horse in the mouth? No risk, throw him in, let him win a job.

General comment: I don't, and i think BB agrees, give a rat's petoot about expectations. Once you have a player who competes like every play is life and death, every camp might be your last (Rodney, Troy etc. there aren't many) you might have expectations at a certain position.

Other than that, you are continually stockpiling talent, especially at positions that need upgrades with twice as many players as slots and let them fight it out.

Maroney is gone, Welker's fighting for a major contract after playing for the franchise number. what were there original expectations?

 

[mgteich]

Call them "expectations" or "evaluations", the conclusion is the same. Belichick's evaluation of folks like Cannon and Wilson will help determine decisions in free agency and/or the draft.

If Belichick views Wilson and McCourty as the safeties for the next several years, then finding a starting safety (as many want), or even a strong backup, is a much lesser need than if Wilson is still a "we'll see" or worse.

General comment: I don't, and i think BB agrees, give a rat's petoot about expectations. Once you have a player who competes like every play is life and death, every camp might be your last (Rodney, Troy etc. there aren't many) you might have expectations at a certain position.

Other than that, you are continually stockpiling talent, especially at positions that need upgrades with twice as many players as slots and let them fight it out.

Maroney is gone, Welker's fighting for a major contract after playing for the franchise number. what were there original expectations?

 

[mgteich]

Did I miss Vollmer's re-signing? Who do you think is our RT for the coming season, "presently"?

CANNON
1Unknown, besides we've got one presently.

 

[ay-yo]

Good topic. My Opinions on the questions:

Wilson - The Pats expect 2nd round picks to grow as players and contribute. BB will give Wilson this year to take over the starting SS spot and bring in some camp fodder for the #4 safety spot. We won't overdraft a safety out of need.

Cannon - we are comfortable with him as a stop gap starter for a year. We won't over draft a tackle b/c of need or overpay Vollmer out of need. I think Vollmer will move on to greener pa$ture$. Even if Cannon is good enough as a 1 year stop gap starter, we need a backup OT.

Dennard - He's our #2 corner. I'd love to have 2 corners better than but its not realistic. Need to find a #1 corner in FA or it will be draft priority #1.

Dowling - camp fodder who could win a job

Francis - we also have Bequette and Cunningham. I think 2 of the 3 will stick on the roster, maybe all 3. I don't see us bringing in many DEs b/c we already have so many signed. We will only draft a DE once all holes have been filled and it's the best value on board.

We could draft a OT, S, CB or DE early if we get all the holes filled in free agency and it's the best value on board.

 

[RayClay]

Did I miss Vollmer's re-signing? Who do you think is our RT for the coming season, "presently"?

This is an answer to your previous question also.

Neither Wilson or Cannon has pushed the player (or possible physical safety, if available) out of the picture so we know where we'd stand with either of them.

In other words, let's deal with Vollmer based on Vollmer. The idea that we will automatically replace the "best right tackle in BB era, with left tackle backup ability" (IMO) with the next guy in the slot is absurd, again in my opinion.

Cannon was trash in the preseason and has only proven he can spell Vollmer when he knows Vollmer is coming back.

Let's try to sign the known and let the unknown force the issue if he can. Maybe he can start at RT every game without hurting us, maybe he can switch to guard. Maybe, maybe, maybe.

I want sure things and if I can't have them I expect maybes, which presently lie somewhere between the guy this whole board wanted to cut in preseason, because he was a turnstile and a guy who has backed up RT adequately in limited circumstances in less pressure than a starter will have.

Wilson? Let's strengthen the safety position. I would like more hitting and don't see the tandem playing beside McCourty as strong enough to prevent a move in that area.

What the hell do we know about Wilson? Let him be a monster next preseason and I'll tell you what I expect. I am not a fortune teller. I was happy with Gregory's play last year, but anyone that would give me a thrill should be able to beat out gregory easily? Why would i think, based on what I know (nothing) Wilson can do that?

I guess you can expect whatever you want on a blind date. you still get what you get.

 

[RayClay]

Did I miss Vollmer's re-signing? Who do you think is our RT for the coming season, "presently"?

I'm sorry, did Vollmer sign elsewhere?

Unless you have some dirt on him I don't know, I expect the Patriots are pretty happy with Vollmer and will make a strong effort to sign him. Have you heard otherwise?

 

[RayClay]

Also, regarding the safety position we are going from pure trash, to a converted CB who looks decent, a journeyman who played OK and a shocking second round pick we think has good character and study habits.

Unless we are giving everyone who tries a trophy, like the modern esteem boosting little league, let's strengthen the position and let people force their way to starters positions in competition.

No one's proved a damn thing at the whole position (including the starters) much less the benchwarmers.

 

[Gumby]

Wilson
1no 1b Mcourty should play safety, regardless of any other hypothetical.
2unknown
3best answer of these choices
4Who's number three?

CANNON
1Unknown, besides we've got one presently.
2aEven more unknown. 2b"better than Connolly" a no now, b totally unknown, future. c why even a question, at this point?

DENNARD

Let him win the job, he can play corner.

Dowling

Count on what? Come to camp, win a job, don't get hurt.


FRANCIS Has he really shown anything?

He's shown everything, as far as I'm concerned. He's hard working, he's motivated and he can perform, even being green in terms of technique, I'm guessing.

Why look a gift horse in the mouth? No risk, throw him in, let him win a job.

General comment: I don't, and i think BB agrees, give a rat's petoot about expectations. Once you have a player who competes like every play is life and death, every camp might be your last (Rodney, Troy etc. there aren't many) you might have expectations at a certain position.

Other than that, you are continually stockpiling talent, especially at positions that need upgrades with twice as many players as slots and let them fight it out.

Maroney is gone, Welker's fighting for a major contract after playing for the franchise number. what were there original expectations?

While your consistent answer of let them fight for a job is valid; it doesnt really get to the answer to mgteich;s overarching question:
"WHERE do you apply limited resources (cap space & roster space) to provide that survival of fittest.

in positions of need BB has often tried a multiple body-see what sticks solution (mid price FAs, draft, & developmentals, and less frequently (dillon/ocho) $ FAs) but not when he felt solid about a position (how many S did he throw in TC while rodney was around??)

so to me mgt's Q is about more than just how does he feel about them individually - but about how do they provide a level of competition at that position.

IMO S is biggest synergy position - so I go high draft +mid $ FA to compete w/ wilson who has solid-strong potential. hi $ -low roster space solution. a few quality guys to compete

dbs have all been fragile incl talib, not just dowling. would love to have a tall db; but think you take value in both FA & draft. so med $ -med roster space solution for dowling/dennard. lots guys in camp that fight it out.

OL- hate to say 'just rely on dante; but that is truth. low volume -either good draft or spend mod fa$ to keep vollmer /repl him. let dante work them in. OL consistency is important so i would prefer vollmer stays even w his back.

dl- this is the position i think you need least competition roster space-wise and could wait a year on spending cap if need be; but a single hi quality guy -lucky value draft or FA who looking for a 1 yr prove it deal would be ideal.

 

[eom]

I thought this was a cromartie thread

 

[RayClay]

While your consistent answer of let them fight for a job is valid; it doesnt really get to the answer to mgteich;s overarching question:
"WHERE do you apply limited resources (cap space & roster space) to provide that survival of fittest.

in positions of need BB has often tried a multiple body-see what sticks solution (mid price FAs, draft, & developmentals, and less frequently (dillon/ocho) $ FAs) but not when he felt solid about a position (how many S did he throw in TC while rodney was around??)

so to me mgt's Q is about more than just how does he feel about them individually - but about how do they provide a level of competition at that position.

IMO S is biggest synergy position - so I go high draft +mid $ FA to compete w/ wilson who has solid-strong potential. hi $ -low roster space solution. a few quality guys to compete

dbs have all been fragile incl talib, not just dowling. would love to have a tall db; but think you take value in both FA & draft. so med $ -med roster space solution for dowling/dennard. lots guys in camp that fight it out.

OL- hate to say 'just rely on dante; but that is truth. low volume -either good draft or spend mod fa$ to keep vollmer /repl him. let dante work them in. OL consistency is important so i would prefer vollmer stays even w his back.

dl- this is the position i think you need least competition roster space-wise and could wait a year on spending cap if need be; but a single hi quality guy -lucky value draft or FA who looking for a 1 yr prove it deal would be ideal.

But I stated, I would like a big FA safety regardless of Wilson's potential and a corner who could cover (starter or no), as opposed to just a depth defensive back type.

Why wouldn't you have Francis competing? He doesn't make any money and has shown a desire to overachieve, so what good would any projection do? It also wouldn't affect whether or not you acquire a FA, or draft a pass rusher if available.

You don't make decisions based on what you think guys who don't make much or play much can do, you strengthen the position if you think it needs strengthening.

The only other player I just said, "let him win a job" and don't get hurt is Dowling. If you've got a fix on him in your crystal ball, you're better than me.

It's a fool's errand to set the price of the grab bag before you see the contents. If you decide the right tackle who was a turnstile in preseason is ready to replace Vollmer on the basis of filling in a few times, so you don't try to sign Vollmer, you better be right, because you can't undue that decision. There's a big difference between being an everyday starter and showing progress.

Bird in the hand and all that.

Dennard was thrown in as a starter and showed an ability to cover. We still need to build there, but that's a good sign.

 

[mgteich]

I agree with your view that we should/will make a strong effort to sign Vollmer. However, he is not presently signed for the season, and there is no particular reason to believe that he will sign with the patriots. I would rather have Vollmer, since he is so good, and we have an adequate backup on the team.

With regard to Cannon, the question is not whether we consider Cannon ready to start. The question is about Belichick and dante. We only need a starting RT if Vollmer is gone and Cannon is not considered ready. In any case, we need a free agent backup OT.

I'm sorry, did Vollmer sign elsewhere?

Unless you have some dirt on him I don't know, I expect the Patriots are pretty happy with Vollmer and will make a strong effort to sign him. Have you heard otherwise?

 

[Froob]

Wilson-Don't want to rely on him. I'd like to see a veteran added and if a good enough safety falls to the Pats I'd like to take him. McCourty can always move back to corner if Wilson ends up being a good player along with rookie/veteran.

Cannon-Honestly haven't paid him enough attention to say much on him.

Dennard-I'm gonna cry if he shows up and stops looking for the ball.

Dowling-Anything he gives is a plus. Most likely gets cut during preseason picked up by Jags and then retires at end of the season. Really hope I'm wrong he has good size and shown some skill. But can't stay on the field for more than like 3 games.

Francis-Looked decent I'd still look for upgrades. Abraham or Freeney?

 

[RayClay]

I agree with your view that we should/will make a strong effort to sign Vollmer. However, he is not presently signed for the season, and there is no particular reason to believe that he will sign with the patriots. I would rather have Vollmer, since he is so good, and we have an adequate backup on the team.

With regard to Cannon, the question is not whether we consider Cannon ready to start. The question is about Belichick and dante. We only need a starting RT if Vollmer is gone and Cannon is not considered ready. In any case, we need a free agent backup OT.

OK. I doubt we go after a top flight tackle, they don't come cheap. Cannon will play, then McDonald, then panic.

Of course, given they have plenty of money and a player in place that's a good guy and i think enjoys playing here, I think they will get that done.

In my opinion, there is a huge misconception here that if we get one player at a position that does well, we can now automatically replicate that success by finding someone else and stuffing them in that uniform. Not only automatically, mind you, but immediately and we can do this for every position.

I disagree completely with that view. The draft is a crapshoot and someone else's former star is often not a fit in any way.

It's been my experience that, when the Patriots find a player who is successful and a good fit in the locker room they go all out to sign that player. I'm betting they sign Vollmer, but if they don't it doesn't matter. Cannon will play. We aren't going to sign backup 1st round level talent at every position in case we lose a free agent.