Stupid NFL Rules

[PATSYLICIOUS]

Won't do any good. The review is only cancelled if the flag is illegally thrown by the team that would benefit from a reversal.

If Kubiak had thrown the flag HOU would have been penalized 15 yards but the TD would still have been reviewed.

So it actually says in the rulebook that the the rule goes into effect if the team could benefit from the reversal? I'd hafta look up the actual wording of the rule

 

[Treetop Woody]

Rule 15, Section 9

Penalty: For initiating a challenge when a team is prohibited from doing so: Loss of 15 yards.

Replay Official’s Request for Review. After all scoring plays, interceptions, fumbles and backward passes that are recovered by an opponent or go out of bounds through an opponent’s end zone, muffed scrimmage kicks recovered by the kicking team, after the two minute warning of each half, and throughout any overtime period, any Replay Review will be initiated by a Replay Official from a Replay Booth comparable to the location of the coaches’ booth or Press Box. Ther is no limit to the number of Referee Reviews that may be initiated by the Replay Official. He must initiate a review before the next legal snap or kick and cannot initiate a review of any ruling against a team that commits a foul that delays the next snap.

The basis the officials used for denying the replay is “. . . cannot initiate a review of any ruling against a team that commits a foul that delays the next snap.” When taken in context with the rest of the paragraph, the intent of the rule is to prevent coaches from throwing the red flag just to delay a team from initiating the next play. The Officials incorrectly took that portion of the rule out of context and applied it to a situation that didn’t exist: Since there was suppose to be an automatic review of any scoring play, Schwartz didn’t delay the next snap so that part of the rule didn’t apply. The rule is ok . . . the Officials just screwed up the interpretation of it. Shame on them.

 

[pherein]

The gutless NFL will never do it, but they should immediately drop that idiotic rule and apologize for issuing it in the first place. There's just no justification that throwing a challenge flag for an obvious missed called should result in a free 7 points for the other team. Shameful.

I agree. I think the Refs did the right thing, by the rules, but it would be nice if the NFL allowed the Head Ref to have a brain, and make his own decision on when to ally rules using common sense. I think most fans just want them to get it right, even if we lose.
Feel sorry for lions fans because this game ends their season.

 

[TheBostonStraggler]

+1 +1 +1.

The NFL's logic is idiotic. Essentially they're saying "you delayed the game by throwing your flag, so we no longer care about getting the correct call."

Another black eye for the league.

That appears to be right....astonishing....incredible....but right.
So the comp. committee got together, decided that it should be a penalty for challenging a ruling on the field (even if you have a challenge available) but then also decided "no matter how bad the call on the field, no matter how big an effect on the game, the offending team now get's no review". The logic is inexplicable.

I'd love to hear someone from the comp. committee explain the original reasoning. There just had to have been more to it than they shouldn;t have done it so no matter how bad the call you get nothing! There just has to be a better explanation....

 

[Gumby]

Originally Posted by Wolfpack
+1 +1 +1.

The NFL's logic is idiotic. Essentially they're saying "you delayed the game by throwing your flag, so we no longer care about getting the correct call."

Another black eye for the league.

That appears to be right....astonishing....incredible....but right.
So the comp. committee got together, decided that it should be a penalty for challenging a ruling on the field (even if you have a challenge available) but then also decided "no matter how bad the call on the field, no matter how big an effect on the game, the offending team now get's no review". The logic is inexplicable.

I'd love to hear someone from the comp. committee explain the original reasoning. There just had to have been more to it than they shouldn;t have done it so no matter how bad the call you get nothing! There just has to be a better explanation....

I would hope that the NFL comes out this week and says that the guys on the field mis-interpreted the rule along the lines of argument previously stated by Treetop.

BUT I SUSPECT NOT. My belief (before reading Treetop explanation) is that the NFL actually meant this rule to be enforced this way. They are trying to STIFLE ANY CRITICISM of the officials. Therefore; the NON-VERBAL CRITICISM by a coach of the Refs by tossing the flag has become INTOLERABLE to them (read Go-to-Hell here).

WHAT IS MOST INSUFFERABLE about this ruling; is that it is the only penalty I can think of that can unjustifiably (that is with NO BASIS IN TRUTH) awards or takes away points for an action that occurred AFTER THE PLAY IS BLOWN DEAD.
Either give 15 yds on KO, make it 1 and 25 for team if went over on downs (although even that is wrong-should be 1-10 15 yds furhter back), or give the O 15 (and a likely 1D) if it wasnt 4th down. Those should be the only choices.

This is the NFL refs picking winners and losers and NOT the players on the field. VERY TRULY SAD - WELCOME TO GO-TO-HELL's NFL.

As a side swipe to the Pats- it is the 2nd week in a row the texans have run into an opponent who turns INCOMPETENT and INEPT in the 4thQ and cant protect a lead. They got lucky twice and Pats should be tied w/ them for 2nd place in standings right now. (But football is a sport where balls bounce funny - so you can't complain about lucky or bad bounces especially in games the Pats werent even playing. just too bad - that's all.).

 

[TheBostonStraggler]

[/I]



I would hope that the NFL comes out this week and says that the guys on the field mis-interpreted the rule along the lines of argument previously stated by Treetop.

BUT I SUSPECT NOT. My belief (before reading Treetop explanation) is that the NFL actually meant this rule to be enforced this way. They are trying to STIFLE ANY CRITICISM of the officials. Therefore; the NON-VERBAL CRITICISM by a coach of the Refs by tossing the flag has become INTOLERABLE to them (read Go-to-Hell here).

WHAT IS MOST INSUFFERABLE about this ruling; is that it is the only penalty I can think of that can unjustifiably (that is with NO BASIS IN TRUTH) awards or takes away points for an action that occurred AFTER THE PLAY IS BLOWN DEAD.
Either give 15 yds on KO, make it 1 and 25 for team if went over on downs (although even that is wrong-should be 1-10 15 yds furhter back), or give the O 15 (and a likely 1D) if it wasnt 4th down. Those should be the only choices.

This is the NFL refs picking winners and losers and NOT the players on the field. VERY TRULY SAD - WELCOME TO GO-TO-HELL's NFL.

As a side swipe to the Pats- it is the 2nd week in a row the texans have run into an opponent who turns INCOMPETENT and INEPT in the 4thQ and cant protect a lead. They got lucky twice and Pats should be tied w/ them for 2nd place in standings right now. (But football is a sport where balls bounce funny - so you can't complain about lucky or bad bounces especially in games the Pats werent even playing. just too bad - that's all.).

Regarding the penalty for a challenge at the wrong time: I thought about it some more and conclude there shouldn't even be a yardage penalty. You should simply lose the timeout (in effect you are forced to take the timeout). And regardless of the timeout, the decision to review the replay still is decided by the upstairs judge.
Again, why does there even need to be a yardage mark off for delay of game when the red challenge flag being thrown is also, in effect, using a timeout? Losing the timeout should be sufficient punishment....especially versus the insane punishment of imposing a bad call to be frozen in error for all eternity.

 

[robbomango]

Just a reminder for those making comparisons between the regulars and the wannabes.

The replacement refs killed football for the short time they were here, way worse than anything I've seen from the regulars so far. The regular refs are more decisive, don't slow the game down to a halt on every call, aren't as easily influenced on calls, are more consistent, keep the games under 31/2 hours and actually know the rules. At least the call against Swartz was technically correct as much as I hated it.

The regulars will always make some atrocious calls but they are light years better than Goodell's replacement zibra circus.

 

[Gumby]

Just a reminder for those making comparisons between the regulars and the wannabes.

The replacement refs killed football for the short time they were here, way worse than anything I've seen from the regulars so far. The regular refs are more decisive, don't slow the game down to a halt on every call, aren't as easily influenced on calls, are more consistent, keep the games under 31/2 hours and actually know the rules. At least the call against Swartz was technically correct as much as I hated it.

The regulars will always make some atrocious calls but they are light years better than Goodell's replacement zibra circus.

I agree with you wholeheartedly on the decisiveness, timing.

Influenced: well agree NOT BY FANS; but there is still the Ommishioner and selective 'media-bias' type players. Coaches/players who call out the refs the week prior do seem to get a little more attention to their pet issues and there do seem to be some 'keeping competitive balance" calls/non-calls going on; which leads to.....

Consistency: ok more consistent than the circus-refs is NOT EXACTLY A HIGH BAR.

that doesn't mean these guys are consistent in EITHER WEEK-WEEK same Ref Team, or SAME WEEK different ref-groups or even within THE SAME GAME. Some of that IMO is being driven by the Ommish and directing points of emphasis and just rules/explanations to players/refs that CANNOT possibly be consistently enforced*

* Helmet-Helmet contact- and Ed Reed discussion is a case in point where Mangini pointed out the only difference in penalty vs no penalty in the LEAGUE EXPLANATION VIDEO was the wr hunching down at last second causing the DB to hit him in helmet.

 

[scout]

Just a reminder for those making comparisons between the regulars and the wannabes.

The replacement refs killed football for the short time they were here, way worse than anything I've seen from the regulars so far. The regular refs are more decisive, don't slow the game down to a halt on every call, aren't as easily influenced on calls, are more consistent, keep the games under 31/2 hours and actually know the rules. At least the call against Swartz was technically correct as much as I hated it.

The regulars will always make some atrocious calls but they are light years better than Goodell's replacement zibra circus.

Really? The way I look at it, without the replacement refs we do not watch football, unless it's college or high school. In an interview with a replacement ref, would you do it all over again? Absolutely, it was what every referee dreams of.

 

[ctsports]

Several things are clear from reviewing the rule:

1) The statement that we've heard a thousand times from announcers that all scores are reviewed is false (at least in the sense of a formal review). Initiating such a review is still at the discretion of the replay official as he must decide and buzz down.

2) The replay official must make the decision before the next snap which doesn't allow enough time for a thorough review of all possible angles. He's taking a cursory review at best and if it doesn't appear controversial letting it go.

3) What if, as a coach with a TO left I disagree and he still hasn't buzzed down while the XP snap is about to occur? We will see a play someday where the coaches on the sideline detected something that was unchallenged by the players on the field so the replay official didn't see it as controversial and let it go.

4) Bottom line - either the rules really should make such challenges automatic in an explicit manner (in which case throwing the flag might be a penalty but it doesn't delay the game and shouldn't negate the review) or a coach with a TO should be able to throw the flag and initiate a challenge at any time.

 

[Gumby]

Really? The way I look at it, without the replacement refs we do not watch football, unless it's college or high school. In an interview with a replacement ref, would you do it all over again? Absolutely, it was what every referee dreams of.

I dont think he was making an A or B choice. (repl refs or no football).

Do you really want to make the argument that they couldn't have come to virtually the same agreement they ended up with 8 weeks earlier (Choice C)?

 

[MoLewisrocks]

I agree. I think the Refs did the right thing, by the rules, but it would be nice if the NFL allowed the Head Ref to have a brain, and make his own decision on when to ally rules using common sense. I think most fans just want them to get it right, even if we lose.
Feel sorry for lions fans because this game ends their season.

Give me a break. Selective interpretation...disregarding rules because of common sense. That would really work. Tuck rule comes to mind.

One guy screwed up yesterday, in part due to desperation. He cost his team 7 points they may or may not have allowed eventually anyway. He's at least owned up to the fact that he let his emotions in the heat of a moment get the better of him. Just like his players often do... The only reason we care here is because it might have benefitted us had his team won. There is no guarantee of that outcome regardless. Lions fans should direct their displeasure/frustration at the appropriate target(s).

Gotta love how we live in a society today where consequences are a thing to be eliminated rather than faced.

Had Schwartz timed his toss better he would have certainly delayed the game whether the clock was running or not. A 15 yard penalty isn't sufficient deterrent. Had this overwrought little egomaniac just let the process unfold he'd have had the correct result. But he refused to so it didn't. That is on him. Just wait til the next time someone gets to play the system at your teams expense because of pressure to reduce or eliminate consequnces. There will be even more shreiking and gnashing of teeth because someone changed a perfectly fine and clear rule...

 

[robbomango]

Really? The way I look at it, without the replacement refs we do not watch football, unless it's college or high school. In an interview with a replacement ref, would you do it all over again? Absolutely, it was what every referee dreams of.

I wasn't disputing the contract negotiation just the quality of the games.

With the regulars you get the non calls, phantom calls etc. but with the replacements you got that plus disorder, total confusion, atrocious game management etc..

I try to watch 5 or 6 full games a week and most all of them sucked with those scabs. Glad to have the regular hacks back...

 

[GaryfromTO]

The rule is ridiculous. Okay access a 15 yd penalty for throwing the challenge flag on a scoring play if you must, but.

IT'S A SCORING PLAY. IT SHOULD STILL BE REVIEWED!

to cancel the automatic review (when it clearly was not a TD) is a joke.

The league needs to address this quickly.

 

[robbomango]

"We know it's not a TD Coach Swartz but since you challenged it we're going to make it a TD and also penalize your team 15 yards"

 

[GaryfromTO]

"We know it's not a TD Coach Swartz but since you challenged it we're going to make it a TD and also penalize your team 15 yards"

Exactly. makes the league look BUSH

 

[Treetop Woody]

Several things are clear from reviewing the rule:

1) The statement that we've heard a thousand times from announcers that all scores are reviewed is false (at least in the sense of a formal review). Initiating such a review is still at the discretion of the replay official as he must decide and buzz down.

2) The replay official must make the decision before the next snap which doesn't allow enough time for a thorough review of all possible angles. He's taking a cursory review at best and if it doesn't appear controversial letting it go.

3) What if, as a coach with a TO left I disagree and he still hasn't buzzed down while the XP snap is about to occur? We will see a play someday where the coaches on the sideline detected something that was unchallenged by the players on the field so the replay official didn't see it as controversial and let it go.

4) Bottom line - either the rules really should make such challenges automatic in an explicit manner (in which case throwing the flag might be a penalty but it doesn't delay the game and shouldn't negate the review) or a coach with a TO should be able to throw the flag and initiate a challenge at any time.

ctsports makes a great point: In re-reading the rule, the announcers are wrong in saying all touchdowns are reviewed. The Replay Official MAY request a review but doesn't have to. So if a Replay Official just misses something that the coach sees, the coach is helpless to bring it to his attention with a red flag . . . even if he has a time out and a challenge left. How goofy is that? The penalty doesn't fit the crime.

 

[Wolfpack]

I agree. I think the Refs did the right thing, by the rules, but it would be nice if the NFL allowed the Head Ref to have a brain, and make his own decision on when to ally rules using common sense. I think most fans just want them to get it right, even if we lose.
Feel sorry for lions fans because this game ends their season.

That solution would creat about 1,000 times more problems than it would fix. People would be constantly arguing about what types of decisions were "common sense" decisions and sooner or later something would come up where everyone felt they were getting screwed.

 

[Wolfpack]

The regular refs are more decisive, don't slow the game down to a halt on every call,

Well I agree they certainly don't slow down the game. Heck they don't even stop the clock during chain measurements anymore! :rocker:

At least the call against Swartz was technically correct as much as I hated it.

The call against Schwartz was technically correct, but you seem to forget that not a single referee on the field saw what 30 million people at home could see, and that is that the runner's knee and elbow was down.

The regulars will always make some atrocious calls but they are light years better than Goodell's replacement zibra circus.

They are better, but not by "light years." I just wish the mediots would go after the regulars for their screw ups as they went after the replacements. If a replacement ref let the clock run during a chain measurement it would have made national headlines. But when it happened 2 weeks ago to the regulars, it really registered nary a blip.

 

[Wolfpack]

One guy screwed up yesterday,

No, 10 guys screwed up yesterday. 1 was the HC of the Lions and the other 9 were the refs on the field who couldn't see what 30 million Americans saw.

He cost his team 7 points they may or may not have allowed eventually anyway.

There is no way whatsoever the ruling on the field would have been upheld if it went to review. Let there be no "may or may not" ambiguity about it. There is a 100% chance it would have been overturned and a 0% chance it would have been upheld.