Emerging PatsFans problem

[Ring 6]

But where's the evidence for his desire to field a league leading defense? Sure we traded up twice last year for defensive players, but one of those was to replace a quality FA we lost (Andre Carter) and the other one was at a position which was already arguably our strongest defensive position grouping. Our safety position has been a revolving door of mediocrity and we blitz less than any other team in the league save the Bills. BB's entire defensive philosophy centers around contain and a defense that doesn't attack will struggle to be considered anywhere near the top defense.

This statement is incorrect

 

[supafly]

Any year that berths a playoff spot is a good season in my book.

You are correct, and I am not just saying that because you are a Redskins fan either.

Any season that allows the team to have a shot at the postseason should be considered a success. The problem is that the expectations are a bit higher here for a team who has secured the #1 seed 2 years in a row, lost the past 2 SB's in the final moments of the game twice in 4 calendar yrs, have arguably the best QB and HC combo in the history of the game, and made several bold moves to equate to better defensive results.

If the defense (more correctly the secondary) didn't look so shaky at times, then more fans would feel "comfortable."

The worry is that we will once again have a 12-4 or 11-5 record only to falter in the postseason due to repeating the same old mistakes over and over again, which may not be entirely true or entirely false either...but that is pretty much the worry and frustration.

Now if you go back to the days where they missed the playoffs every year on a consistent basis, then you'd be in the same company as current Redskin fans who just want to taste the postseason again.

Should the 'Skins have the best record in the NFL over the next 10 years and secure 2 #1 seeds in a row to go along with 2 last minute SB losses, then you'd be in the exact same scenario, as your fans would "just want that one more elusive trophy" too.

The biggest regret and sense of frustration is that they are so close, yet have to bear witness to watching the same mistakes from the secondary/pass defense, despite many wasted high picks and free agent moves etc.

 

[manxman2601]

This statement is incorrect

Fair enough.

 

[Sparetire]

This statement is incorrect

Why? i think it is true to say that a D who is passive will find it more difficult to deal with a good offense.

 

[RodThePat]

You are correct, and I am not just saying that because you are a Redskins fan either.

Any season that allows the team to have a shot at the postseason should be considered a success. The problem is that the expectations are a bit higher here for a team who has secured the #1 seed 2 years in a row, lost the past 2 SB's in the final moments of the game twice in 4 calendar yrs, have arguably the best QB and HC combo in the history of the game, and made several bold moves to equate to better defensive results.

If the defense (more correctly the secondary) didn't look so shaky at times, then more fans would feel "comfortable."

The worry is that we will once again have a 12-4 or 11-5 record only to falter in the postseason due to repeating the same old mistakes over and over again, which may not be entirely true or entirely false either...but that is pretty much the worry and frustration.

Now if you go back to the days where they missed the playoffs every year on a consistent basis, then you'd be in the same company as current Redskin fans who just want to taste the postseason again.

Should the 'Skins have the best record in the NFL over the next 10 years and secure 2 #1 seeds in a row to go along with 2 last minute SB losses, then you'd be in the exact same scenario, as your fans would "just want that one more elusive trophy" too.

The biggest regret and sense of frustration is that they are so close, yet have to bear witness to watching the same mistakes from the secondary/pass defense, despite many wasted high picks and free agent moves etc.

I can't help but think you are lying to yourself saying any playoff season is a good season for this team. Really? Were you satisfied with how their 2009 and 2010 seasons unfolded? Do you look back at those year and immediately think they were successful? Maybe if it were the Bills or the Jaguars getting to the playoffs and losing twice in a row, that'd be considered good enough. Not with this team, though.

 

[Kontradiction]

Why? i think it is true to say that a D who is passive will find it more difficult to deal with a good offense.

Not so sure about that. The Jags in the 2007 Divisional round did pretty good against one of the better offenses in the league.

 

[BSR]

You are correct, and I am not just saying that because you are a Redskins fan either.

Any season that allows the team to have a shot at the postseason should be considered a success. The problem is that the expectations are a bit higher here for a team who has secured the #1 seed 2 years in a row, lost the past 2 SB's in the final moments of the game twice in 4 calendar yrs, have arguably the best QB and HC combo in the history of the game, and made several bold moves to equate to better defensive results.

If the defense (more correctly the secondary) didn't look so shaky at times, then more fans would feel "comfortable."

The worry is that we will once again have a 12-4 or 11-5 record only to falter in the postseason due to repeating the same old mistakes over and over again, which may not be entirely true or entirely false either...but that is pretty much the worry and frustration.

Now if you go back to the days where they missed the playoffs every year on a consistent basis, then you'd be in the same company as current Redskin fans who just want to taste the postseason again.

Should the 'Skins have the best record in the NFL over the next 10 years and secure 2 #1 seeds in a row to go along with 2 last minute SB losses, then you'd be in the exact same scenario, as your fans would "just want that one more elusive trophy" too.

The biggest regret and sense of frustration is that they are so close, yet have to bear witness to watching the same mistakes from the secondary/pass defense, despite many wasted high picks and free agent moves etc.

What happened four years ago doesn't matter. What happened last year doesn't even matter. The reality of the NFL is that nothing lasts and every year you are starting anew and so should your expectations. This wringing of hands over what could have been is pointless. They are a team with weaknesses, just like every other in the NFL. At this point in the season, making it to the playoffs is all anyone should realistically hope for.

 

[RodThePat]

What happened four years ago doesn't matter. What happened last year doesn't even matter. The reality of the NFL is that nothing lasts and every year you are starting anew and so should your expectations. This wringing of hands over what could have been is pointless. They are a team with weaknesses, just like every other in the NFL. At this point in the season, making it to the playoffs is all anyone should realistically hope for.

You have Tom Brady and Bill Belichick playing on one of the weakest divisions in football. Not making the playoffs would be an absolute abomination. Making the playoffs is the absolute minimum this team should accomplish.

 

[BSR]

I can't help but think you are lying to yourself saying any playoff season is a good season for this team. Really? Were you satisfied with how their 2009 and 2010 seasons unfolded? Do you look back at those year and immediately think they were successful? Maybe if it were the Bills or the Jaguars getting to the playoffs and losing twice in a row, that'd be considered good enough. Not with this team, though.

How do you look at those 2009 and 2010 teams and with any credibility say that they underacheived? Look at that 2009 defense. It was horrible and I think only three players from that unit are still starting anywhere in the league (Wilfork, Mayo and Nink). The 2010 roster was slightly better but only because of the rooks. The only reason those teams competed were because of BB and TB.

I think the problem with people's expectations is that the Patriots didn't have one or two really bad seasons to signal to everyone that they were in rebuilding mode. The fact is that they still made the playoffs while in rebuilding mode, which is remarkable.

 

[BSR]

You have Tom Brady and Bill Belichick playing on one of the weakest divisions in football. Not making the playoffs would be an absolute abomination. Making the playoffs is the absolute minimum this team should accomplish.

That isn't really much different than what I said, other than being much more dramatic. However, that expectation is because they are in the AFCE not because they are talent filled team of world beaters. Put them up against the playoff field of Bal, Hou, Den, Pit and then the expectations should become MUCH more realistic. There wouldn't be any shame losing to those teams. They are good teams that probably have more all around talent than this one does. It might take beating Pit, Hou and Den to reach the SB this year. Anyone that thinks that is a reasonable expectation is being absurd.

 

[lamafist]

That isn't really much different than what I said, other than being much more dramatic. However, that expectation is because they are in the AFCE not because they are talent filled team of world beaters. Put them up against the playoff field of Bal, Hou, Den, Pit and then the expectations should become MUCH more realistic. There wouldn't be any shame losing to those teams. They are good teams that probably have more all around talent than this one does. It might take beating Pit, Hou and Den to reach the SB this year. Anyone that thinks that is a reasonable expectation is being absurd.

Yes, but is it a less reasonable expectations than for Houston to beat Pit, Denver and the Pats? Or for Denver to beat Pit, Hou and us? Or, imo the least likely, for Pit to beat the Pats, Texans and Broncos, all likely on the road?

 

[lamafist]

Why? i think it is true to say that a D who is passive will find it more difficult to deal with a good offense.

Any hypothesis that ascribes a binary characterization to NFL defenses, such as "active" vs. "passive," is too reductive to be meaningful.

 

[BSR]

Yes, but is it a less reasonable expectations than for Houston to beat Pit, Denver and the Pats? Or for Denver to beat Pit, Hou and us? Or, imo the least likely, for Pit to beat the Pats, Texans and Broncos, all likely on the road?

I think expectations should be less than then they are for Houston. That team looks like a more complete team although they have less playoff experience. This year there doesn't look like there is a steam rolling team like last years Packers.

 

[PatriotSeven]

Couldn't agree more OP. I noticed the same thing. It felt like I was being attacked for praising even great plays by the defense.

This isn't a perfect team. These are not the 2007 Patriots. This is a scrappy bunch. But for the first time in a long time, I feel like the team has regained its human element, and actually has some personality.

We're not a bunch of robots anymore. We're a scrappy bunch. And I kind of like it, even if it means they make us pull our hairs out when we lose games we should have won and struggle to win games against teams we should be blowing out.

I manage to remind myself though, that winning is hard in the NFL and nothing comes easy, and in the end, some of the best wins are those hard fought wins where you pull through in the end. There's a reason Tom's a little shaky lately closing out 4th quarters....he's been out of practice in situations like this.

Glad to see they are coming back to him though and I enjoyed the close wins this season tremendously. They felt very satisfying. I actually feel more comfortable that if we find ourselves in a nasty, ugly game, we now have the will power and confidence to claw our way to a W. And for that 4th ring, it may just require that type of effort.

Go Pats!

 

[lamafist]

I think expectations should be less than then they are for Houston. That team looks like a more complete team although they have less playoff experience. This year there doesn't look like there is a steam rolling team like last years Packers.

Well, Houston will likely have home field throughout, which is always helpful. That said, I'm actually more concerned with Denver.

I think we match up pretty well against Houston. Assuming that last Sunday's tackle-aversion doesn't become a habit, the Pats have a good shot at being able to stop Houston's running game with only 7 in the box, and that will help against the Texans' play-action passing, which is their bread and butter.

Also, the Pats' passing D has actually been pretty good against a teams primary and secondary receivers. It's against 3rd receivers and TEs where we really struggle. Houston's passing game is very Andre-Johnson-centric. Also, though I don't know if/where they keep this stat, but I don't think Houston tends to even use a 3rd wideout very much.

 

[AzPatsFan]

Well I suppose it defends on ones definition of "meh".

I said that he wants to build a defense that keeps us competitive. I see little evidence that he's tried to build a dominating defense. Yes he's spent a lot of defensive picks but those have largely been on containing type players, not the type of attacking players that one normally associates with dominating defenses.

I'm not even being negative about it, it's entirely possible that he's unable to assign the necessary resources to build such a defense. The highest pick we had in the last three years was #17 and at that time had a potentially desperate need for a LT, a pick I loved then and now, so there no getting a JJ Watt for example. I said earlier that safety has been a revolving door of mediocrity, well to be fair to BB, the safety position in the NFL is almost defined by mediocrity anyway (as was last years draft save Barron and Harrison Smith). But the truth is, we haven't attacked our defense in the way the Texans have and that's what you need to do if you want to be the best: No recognised DC, no big FA signings on defense.

Having said all that, I do have a lot of positivity going forward although I don't think we'll ever be a top defense without some philosophical changes. I'm a big fan of McCourty at safety and hope that the move is permanent. I'm hopeful that the Talib trade can give us success and that he'll become a long term fixture. I'm a big fan of Hightower and hope BB uses him properly.

I'm not being a downer, I just think any defensive ambitions we have for the Pats should be tempered to account for BB's defensive philosophy.

The texans were an expansion team and theh underperformed for years turning in record of about 8-8.

It is a hell of lot easier to draft "game changers" and stars when you always draft Top 10 or Top 15.

Outside of the Mayo pick, BB hasn't had a Top 15 pick since 2002, and it cost him Richard Seymour to get even that...

Are you ready to suffer a couple years of of 2-14 records to draft the "Dominaring Defense"? I for one Do NOT!

 

[Kontradiction]

The texans were an expansion team and theh underperformed for years turning in record of about 8-8.

It is a hell of lot easier to draft "game changers" and stars when you always draft Top 10 or Top 15.

Outside of the Mayo pick, BB hasn't had a Top 15 pick since 2002, and it cost him Richard Seymour to get even that...

Are you ready to suffer a couple years of of 2-14 records to draft the "Dominaring Defense"? I for one Do NOT!

The Richard Seymour pick actually yielded Nate Solder.

 

[Deus Irae]

Well I suppose it defends on ones definition of "meh".

I said that he wants to build a defense that keeps us competitive. I see little evidence that he's tried to build a dominating defense. Yes he's spent a lot of defensive picks but those have largely been on containing type players, not the type of attacking players that one normally associates with dominating defenses.

I'm not even being negative about it, it's entirely possible that he's unable to assign the necessary resources to build such a defense. The highest pick we had in the last three years was #17 and at that time had a potentially desperate need for a LT, a pick I loved then and now, so there no getting a JJ Watt for example. I said earlier that safety has been a revolving door of mediocrity, well to be fair to BB, the safety position in the NFL is almost defined by mediocrity anyway (as was last years draft save Barron and Harrison Smith). But the truth is, we haven't attacked our defense in the way the Texans have and that's what you need to do if you want to be the best: No recognised DC, no big FA signings on defense.

Having said all that, I do have a lot of positivity going forward although I don't think we'll ever be a top defense without some philosophical changes. I'm a big fan of McCourty at safety and hope that the move is permanent. I'm hopeful that the Talib trade can give us success and that he'll become a long term fixture. I'm a big fan of Hightower and hope BB uses him properly.

I'm not being a downer, I just think any defensive ambitions we have for the Pats should be tempered to account for BB's defensive philosophy.

Yes, if you ignore all the high draft picks and the free agent signings and the trades, there's not much to show that BB has tried to build a "dominating" defense.

 

[supafly]

I can't help but think you are lying to yourself saying any playoff season is a good season for this team. Really? Were you satisfied with how their 2009 and 2010 seasons unfolded? Do you look back at those year and immediately think they were successful? Maybe if it were the Bills or the Jaguars getting to the playoffs and losing twice in a row, that'd be considered good enough. Not with this team, though.

I think that you misread the comment entirely, but to each his own my friend.

I claimed that it is always a success to have a constantly competitive team that makes the playoffs pretty much every year, but I also pointed out the obvious sense of frustration that we all feel with the problems of having a piss poor pass defense and likely the greatest HC/QB combo of all time. The biggest sense of frustration comes from repeating many of the same mistakes, while wasting high draft picks in the process.

In other words, I think that I explained myself just fine to a Redskins fan who claimed that "any season resulting in the playoffs would be a success."

There is obvious truth to that from the perspective of a fan who hasn't tasted the playoffs in awhile, which I pointed out.

I also pointed out the differences between his fanbase and ours, and how it would likely be the same under our current circumstances.