Maybe Bill Walsh is right: after 10 years there needs to be a change

[MoLewisrocks]

Yes, a good GM gets the coach what he needs though it's very possible that what a coach needs and what they think they need are 2 different things.

Regarding what you and Kraft might do, it all comes down to a tipping point, you and him might not have reached yours yet but it does exist, what's yours?

Back to back sub .500 seasons like the good old days that us geezer fans have never fotgotten.

 

[Snake Eyes]

What do you think that makes you a tough guy?
You judge a team by everything they do.
Belichick has won 14 playoff games in his tenure here, and 3 Championships.
If to put blinders on then the Saints and Packers are the only 2 teams that have accomplished anything in the last 2 years and everyone else is a failure.
If your standard is no SBs in 3 years is grounds for firing you won't have many coaches to pick from. Or are you calling 2007 an abject failure too?

Belichick hasn't won in the playoffs in a while, and the defense is getting worse. It's becoming increasingly evident that he needs help to do it again yet he also appears not to want it. My grounds for firing someone is them taking the ship in the wrong direction, I won't eat someone's lunch for missing the playoffs if they're a crappy team as long as the HC is doing the right things and making them better.

We have a HoF QB on the roster, we should be doing better than we are, so if I'm the owner I need a reasonable expectation that things are going to improve.

 

[Snake Eyes]

That does not even resemble anything I have said.
A random change from the most successful organiozation of the last decade to something you refuse to even describe is a step in the wrong direction.

Something that I refuse to describe, are you serious? The coach handles coaching and the GM handles personnel, it's not beyond description and it's not uncommon either.

What standard is higher than during the time Brady has been here this has been the most successful franchise in the NFL?
What standard is higher than the most wins and best winning percentage EVER between HC and QB.

What coach in our lifetimes has accomplished more with any QB?

If your standard is he has the best QB then your standard should be he must accomplish more with that QB than any coach has with any other. AND HE HAS.

I'm curious why you think all the success the organization has had is due to BB. He deserves credit without a doubt but I'm astonished that you discount the efforts of so many others who have played a major role in the organization's success. BB did nothing in Cleveland, yet you write that off and blame the players, BB is successful here and you give him all the glory, sorry but you can't have it both ways.

 

[Snake Eyes]

So you want to downgrade what he has done as a coach, because as a GM he has given himself too much talent?

Feel free to, instead of talking in circles, give us that list of all the coaches you would rather have.
Don't let your rhetoric write checks your balls (or lack thereof) cant cash.

BB INHERITED a lot of the talent on the roster for our SB wins, he also had the good fortune to come across free agents like Mike Vrabel and Rodney Harrison, he had the good sense to sign them when others didnt, and good on him for doing so, but please don't pretend that he was the grand architect of all the SB success.

The more time goes by the more this team is a result of his decisions and there are serious cracks showing, which he deserves blame for.

It's kinda funny, although I don't often agree with you I do admire your ability to put together sound, logical arguments, but it's interesting to see you come apart emotionally and attack me like you have. It's almost like the idea of BB not being the god he's been built up to be worse than you finding out there's no such thing as Santa Claus when you were 8.

 

[Snake Eyes]

You invoked recent playoff success, not me, I just used your line of reasoning to demonstrate how foolish it was. The patriots are the best franchise in football under Belichik and those crapping on him for going19-4 with a playoff loss while rebuilding his defense are so frigging far out in left field with their "arguments" that they really don't even deserve a response

What? I addressed your comment, pal, I had no correspondence with you in this thread prior to that, so you might want to get your facts straight, I'd also recommend backing off the condescending tone, you're not that good at it.

As far as BB "rebuilding" the defense, he's been rebuilding for a few years now and it's gotten worse. If you have a good succession plan your rebuilding is minimal because you get guys before you need them so they're ready to go when you do need them.

 

[Lifer]

BB INHERITED a lot of the talent on the roster for our SB wins, he also had the good fortune to come across free agents like Mike Vrabel and Rodney Harrison, he had the good sense to sign them when others didnt, and good on him for doing so, but please don't pretend that he was the grand architect of all the SB success.

The more time goes by the more this team is a result of his decisions and there are serious cracks showing, which he deserves blame for.

It's kinda funny, although I don't often agree with you I do admire your ability to put together sound, logical arguments, but it's interesting to see you come apart emotionally and attack me like you have. It's almost like the idea of BB not being the god he's been built up to be worse than you finding out there's no such thing as Santa Claus when you were 8.

He inherited "a lot of the talent"? Really? Law, Milloy, Johnson,Bruschi,McGinest,Brown,Vinatieri, and Faulk. That's 8 out of 53.

 

[Snake Eyes]

He inherited "a lot of the talent"? Really? Law, Milloy, Johnson,Bruschi,McGinest,Brown,Vinatieri, and Faulk. That's 8 out of 53.

Yeah, and many of them were cornerstones on the team.

 

[Jackson 2]

Something that I refuse to describe, are you serious? The coach handles coaching and the GM handles personnel, it's not beyond description and it's not uncommon either.



I'm curious why you think all the success the organization has had is due to BB. He deserves credit without a doubt but I'm astonished that you discount the efforts of so many others who have played a major role in the organization's success. BB did nothing in Cleveland, yet you write that off and blame the players, BB is successful here and you give him all the glory, sorry but you can't have it both ways.

Actually, while in Cleveland he beat the Patriots and Bill Parcells in a play-off game. While his experience there was uneven, it's not accurate to say BB "did nothing in Cleveland." His regular season record was 36 and 44 over 5 years which averages out to 7-9 per year. He was 1 and 1 in the playoffs in 1994 when the Browns were 11-5 in the regular season.

 

[Huckleberry1]

What? I addressed your comment, pal, I had no correspondence with you in this thread prior to that, so you might want to get your facts straight, I'd also recommend backing off the condescending tone, you're not that good at it.

As far as BB "rebuilding" the defense, he's been rebuilding for a few years now and it's gotten worse. If you have a good succession plan your rebuilding is minimal because you get guys before you need them so they're ready to go when you do need them.

Jesus I hate predictive text.


Better to suck at condescension than to suck at reason, which is clearly your weakness. When you have to replace a bunch if old great players you always get worse before getting better, yet despite that Belichik continues to keep the team among the best on football, yet somehow that isn't good enough for some fans who think SB or bust is the only equation. 18-1 with a tough loss in the SB a few short years ago and 29-4 with a playoff loss the last year and half and some want to crap on Belicik yet that's apparently not good enough? You people are frigging nuts.

 

[BSR]

BB INHERITED a lot of the talent on the roster for our SB wins, he also had the good fortune to come across free agents like Mike Vrabel and Rodney Harrison, he had the good sense to sign them when others didnt, and good on him for doing so, but please don't pretend that he was the grand architect of all the SB success.

The more time goes by the more this team is a result of his decisions and there are serious cracks showing, which he deserves blame for.

It's kinda funny, although I don't often agree with you I do admire your ability to put together sound, logical arguments, but it's interesting to see you come apart emotionally and attack me like you have. It's almost like the idea of BB not being the god he's been built up to be worse than you finding out there's no such thing as Santa Claus when you were 8.

Er...no. I can't believe anyone, nevermind a Pats fan, would ever try to rationalize a position like this one. I think only the most blind haters (or Borges) would take a position like yours. Its just mind boggling.

 

[Ron Sellers]

BB INHERITED a lot of the talent on the roster for our SB wins, he also had the good fortune to come across free agents like Mike Vrabel and Rodney Harrison, he had the good sense to sign them when others didnt, and good on him for doing so, but please don't pretend that he was the grand architect of all the SB success.

So basically when he makes a good personnel decision it's essentially luck ("good fortune"), but when he doesn't make a good personnel decision it's due to his lack of ability to evaluate talent?

You do realize the annual number of wins by the Pats was declining for four straight years, right? And that the "grand architect" (I assume you're talking about Parcells, not Carroll) had a grand total of one playoff win in seven years after leaving Foxboro?


As for the other comment about Belichick in Cleveland, keep in mind he took over an old team in need of overhaul, lost his new starting QB to injury once things were in placer, and had a meddling owner who threw the final season into turmoil by announcing after four games that they were leaving town at the end of the season. Not exactly an environment or situation we're a team would be expected to win a lot of games.

 

[Ring 6]

Belichick hasn't won in the playoffs in a while, and the defense is getting worse. It's becoming increasingly evident that he needs help to do it again yet he also appears not to want it. My grounds for firing someone is them taking the ship in the wrong direction, I won't eat someone's lunch for missing the playoffs if they're a crappy team as long as the HC is doing the right things and making them better.

We have a HoF QB on the roster, we should be doing better than we are, so if I'm the owner I need a reasonable expectation that things are going to improve.

So the greatest coach of our generation is a failure based upon losing 2 playoff games. Nice.

 

[Ring 6]

BB INHERITED a lot of the talent on the roster for our SB wins,

Come on. You know thats BS yourself. He inherited a nightmare, a team that was called the farthest away from winning a SB by Pro Football Weekly before the 2001 season.

he also had the good fortune to come across free agents like Mike Vrabel and Rodney Harrison,

So the good moves are fortune and the ones that don't work out are moronic?

he had the good sense to sign them when others didnt, and good on him for doing so, but please don't pretend that he was the grand architect of all the SB success.

Please list all of the players that got those rings that were there before he arrived. See when you actually look at facts instead of making things up, you will learn something. Start with the offense. How many SB starts came from players who BB inherited?

The more time goes by the more this team is a result of his decisions and there are serious cracks showing, which he deserves blame for.

Pick a timeframe and this team wins more games that anyone. I know your personal feeling of entitlement to win a SB every year makes you post crazy stuff, but once again.....who has done better. You have ignored that question a dozen times.

It's kinda funny, although I don't often agree with you I do admire your ability to put together sound, logical arguments, but it's interesting to see you come apart emotionally and attack me like you have. It's almost like the idea of BB not being the god he's been built up to be worse than you finding out there's no such thing as Santa Claus when you were 8.

No emotion, just reaction to your idiocy.

 

[Ring 6]

Yeah, and many of them were cornerstones on the team.

So you are giving more credit to 8 that he inherited including a K, 2 backups and one never played until BB arrived, than the 45 he acquired?
You have to know how stupid that sounds. Even if you won't admit it.

 

[Ring 6]

Actually, while in Cleveland he beat the Patriots and Bill Parcells in a play-off game. While his experience there was uneven, it's not accurate to say BB "did nothing in Cleveland." His regular season record was 36 and 44 over 5 years which averages out to 7-9 per year. He was 1 and 1 in the playoffs in 1994 when the Browns were 11-5 in the regular season.

He also built a terrible team into a playoff team in an era without free agency, and was dealt a hand with the team being moved.
It wasn't a great job, but given what he had to start with and the constraints in getting a quick turnaround under the system in place it was hardly awful

 

[Ring 6]

Something that I refuse to describe, are you serious? The coach handles coaching and the GM handles personnel, it's not beyond description and it's not uncommon either.

You have refused a dozen times to name anyone who has done a better job. Who are you hiring to replace him?

I'm curious why you think all the success the organization has had is due to BB. He deserves credit without a doubt but I'm astonished that you discount the efforts of so many others who have played a major role in the organization's success. BB did nothing in Cleveland, yet you write that off and blame the players, BB is successful here and you give him all the glory, sorry but you can't have it both ways.

He is in charge. He directs the football operations.
Where did I ever say no one else contributed anything? But the system in place is BB is in charge, and he hires, he fires, he delegates, he has ultimate responsibility. It is a system that has had more success than any other. You look at that and call if failure. You are either lying to yourself or lacking in intellect.

 

[reflexblue]

You must have been a pretty miserable Patriots fan prior to 2001.

Its all realative, twenty years ago this would be looked upon as a great season all the team needs is to draft some talent on defense and we'ed be all set.

From my perspective this team has a core of very good to great players on offense and time is running out on Brady. The defense has been declining due to lack of quality draft picks and the D-line and OLB have been neglected e.g. BB has Never taken an OLB with a 1st rnd pick and only one with a second since hes been here. And in the last 5 years the D-line has been left to languish after taking wilfork in '04. Year after year the Dline is comprised mainly of older free agent cast off's. You can't expect to have, never mind build a D-line using that philosophy.

 

[chris_in_sunnyvale]

BB INHERITED a lot of the talent on the roster for our SB wins, he also had the good fortune to come across free agents like Mike Vrabel and Rodney Harrison, he had the good sense to sign them when others didnt, and good on him for doing so, but please don't pretend that he was the grand architect of all the SB success.

Good advice.

All that inherited talent did wonders in 2000 (5-11). It's well known about the facelift the team underwent before the 2001 season. Yeah, he's had some frustrating misses in the drafts recently, particularly in the secondary considering how many picks he's spent there, but (1) there are not all misses and (2) to expand those misses into the outstanding work he did earlier in the decade is revising history to make your point.

Regards,
Chris

 

[Snake Eyes]

So basically when he makes a good personnel decision it's essentially luck ("good fortune"), but when he doesn't make a good personnel decision it's due to his lack of ability to evaluate talent?

You do realize the annual number of wins by the Pats was declining for four straight years, right? And that the "grand architect" (I assume you're talking about Parcells, not Carroll) had a grand total of one playoff win in seven years after leaving Foxboro?


As for the other comment about Belichick in Cleveland, keep in mind he took over an old team in need of overhaul, lost his new starting QB to injury once things were in placer, and had a meddling owner who threw the final season into turmoil by announcing after four games that they were leaving town at the end of the season. Not exactly an environment or situation we're a team would be expected to win a lot of games.

I already said his acquisition of Vrabel and Harrison was to his credit! There seems to be some kind of dichotomy present, that if I don't think BB is an absolute god then I think he's the scum of the earth, which isn't true.

I've already said that ideally I'd prefer to keep him as HC and have someone else take over the GM duties.

BB has done a LOT that he deserves to be praised for, I just think that a lot of others had a big hand in it as well. I believe in being fair, and that means giving praise when it's due and also criticism when that's due.

 

[MoLewisrocks]

I already said his acquisition of Vrabel and Harrison was to his credit! There seems to be some kind of dichotomy present, that if I don't think BB is an absolute god then I think he's the scum of the earth, which isn't true.

I've already said that ideally I'd prefer to keep him as HC and have someone else take over the GM duties.

BB has done a LOT that he deserves to be praised for, I just think that a lot of others had a big hand in it as well. I believe in being fair, and that means giving praise when it's due and also criticism when that's due.

This is really getting pathetic, so you fall on your sword by claiming an imaginary dichotomy is forcing you to choose between Bill being a god or the scum of the earth...which isn't true. And the claim out of Cleveland, where they can only wish they had been smarter than to buy in, was that he somehow was the pond scum of the earth clogging up their inevitable path to glory... What they wouldn't give to have another shot at the good old days of being managed by pond scum...

I've already explained to you half a dozen times why you don't have a choice to keep him as the HC while someone else takes over the GM duties. Ergo, your choice is to propose a new HC and GM and you cannot apparently tell us who it is you think would be better suited for the job than the incumbant.

You also cannot tell us who these others are who had a big hand in Bill's previous success here as well... Scott Pioli? The college kid who used to come and watch Giants practices whom Bill gave a start in the league in Cleveland and later brought to NY when he rejoined Parcell's staff as asst. HC and taught pretty much everything he knows about player evaluation and roster and cap management for his system? RAC, who worked under Bill on Tuna's staffs for years without getting a shot at being more than a position coach whom Bill subbed for in his first year here and then brought in laterally from a failed season in Cleveland to be his own DC running his system?? Charlie, who was a HS HC before getting a shot at running the Earnhart/Perkins offense Bill chose to employ here in NY (albeit without periodically striping him of his playcalling duties as Tuna did)??? All great guys Bill mentored in their careers who wanted to be something more? Bill let them go because having succeeded in his shadow, that is what they wanted, a shot on their own outside his shadow. And he gets that. Hasn't panned out too well for any of them to date... Have any of them built a team yet that can win in the postseason?? Dimetroff's has gotten there 2 of the last 3 seasons but has yet to win a playoff game... And his team stumbled a little out of the gate this season and will be coming off it's bye this week at an apparently totally unacceptable 4-3 given they had the best record in the NFCS in 2010 only to get one and done whalloped by the wildcard Packers in their own house.

So again, tell us what is it you want and who do you propose to do it and who it was other than Bill who engineered this franchise to four Superbowls in the last 10 seasons? And who on earth has done better than that in a decade??

Do you want to bring Pioli or Dimetroff back or to bring in Cowher or Gruden or Fisher (who will demand total football ops control themselves) on board or call Mrs. Harbaugh and ask if she has any other sons interested in coaching an NCL team? Do you want to lure Ozzie away from the Ravens and see if he can build an actual championship winning team for the second time in a decade which would also be the first time in this decade? There's a shot Bill Polian may be available soon...

It would probably be easier to just stand down or even better admit that you're desire to change it up is just kneejerk frustration born of entitlement provided courtesy of William Stephen Belichick... He may not be the best in the business, but if he isn't you certainly aren't offering up anyone to replace him who is...